Saturday, August 08, 2009

Mind Over..."The Matter"

Senator Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) along with Senators Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.) and Susan Collins (R-Maine) have introduced a new version of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA). Under the new act "perceived and actual sexual orientation and gender identity (would be added) to categories protected under federal law against discrimination."

Read full story HERE and HERE.
Read about the Massachusetts "bathroom bill"
What do you think is going to happen if a man whom has "changed" into a woman or vice-versa is allowed to use an opposite sex bathroom or locker room? What if I "perceive" myself to be a women? What will stop me from wanting to use the ladies bathroom or locker-room? What sort of rules are going to be enforced to prove my sexual identity? If I "perceive" myself as a woman and I clearly look like a man with all the "parts", and I have changed my MA state drivers license to indicate that I am a women, why can't I go see some tale in the ladies room without being questioned? If I am questioned can I sue for discrimination?
Sounds like a slithery and slippery slope to me.

31 Comments:

Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“…why can't I go see some tale in the ladies room without being questioned? If I am questioned can I sue for discrimination?”

If you’ve got to go through that much work to “see some tale”, your life is too sad to continue… end it now.

3:14 AM, August 09, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

LOL, but some sicko rapist or maybe a pedophile WILL go through that much trouble to get what they want.

What sort of rules are going to be enforced to prove anyone's sexual identity, such that they could go into an opposite sex bathroom/locker-room?

10:46 AM, August 09, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“What sort of rules are going to be enforced to prove anyone's sexual identity, such that they could go into an opposite sex bathroom/locker-room?”

It’s just frickin sad that we can’t depend on people to act in a decent manner. Yeah I see what you’re saying and I agree. But think about how things are now. If some “sicko” dresses like a woman and is actually able to pull it off no one will question him now either. We don’t regulate bathrooms much now. A number of years ago I was delivering a package to a rehab center. I had to go real bad. So after delivering I made a b-line strait for the bathrooms. I ran in and with great joy relieved myself. However while I was standing there I noticed that there was a foot in the next stall wearing what I thought was an awfully feminine shoe. It took me a few seconds to realize that in my rush I entered the wrong restroom… I am sure I frightened the poor lady next to me when she noticed that my feet were facing the wrong direction. I didn’t say sorry or anything; I just got out of there as quick as I could, probably a little redder than when I went in. I didn’t go in to “see some tale”; I just made a very human mistake. Can you imagine a “bathroom guard” ticketing me for my offense? I did nothing intentional. We must depend on people to act appropriately now. We don’t have anyone checking the genitals of anyone entering restrooms now. If someone is acting inappropriately in a restroom (peeking) we can report them. We must also think rationally as to the “why” we have separate restrooms. My Mother-in-Law says it’s to prevent the “perverts” from watching you do your business. I asked about gays. She told me that gays aren’t perverts; only men are.

1:46 PM, August 09, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

You say:

"...We don’t regulate bathrooms much now..."

No, we don't. But we will have to such that the sicko who dresses as a women does not get away with TAKING advantage of the new act...how ever that checked out method may be regulated, I have no idea. We WILL here about more sicko's taking advantage of the new act if it becomes law. Just imagine the crap we will here in the news...seriously!!!!!

P.S. I went into a womens' room by mistake...thank God it was only a one man bathroom. I figured I was in the wrong bathroom when I saw the tampon dispenser...;)

2:17 PM, August 09, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Hear, not here...woops.

2:18 PM, August 09, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“We WILL here about more sicko's taking advantage of the new act if it becomes law.”

I doubt it. Men who dress as women may get into the bathroom now; and they may be a peeker, but I feel confident that just as many as get caught now will be caught if these changes take effect.

“Just imagine the crap we will here in the news...seriously!!!!!

I think in the 90’s I heard about a woman who went into a electronics store, used the bathroom then realized there were wires coming from the bathroom to the manager’s office. She continued looking and found that this manager was videotaping the restroom. I think that’s the kind of stuff we’ll hear about more and more as we become more technically savvy.

I also heard about a high school employee (not sure if it was a janitor or teacher) that would always find an excuse to be in the gym at a certain time of day every day. It was found out later that he would climb the rafters and found a place where he could see the girls taking their after gym class showers.

Creeps will always be creepy Scia; we can institute all sorts of new laws and those laws won’t matter to them one bit. They don’t care about the law; they only care about being their creepy little selves. These creeps are already going into the women’s bathroom; these supposed “changes” will do nothing to change it.

7:54 PM, August 09, 2009  
Blogger Bonnie Hendricks said...

Methinks the world has gone insane.Just as Bible prophesy predicted.

3:46 PM, August 10, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“Methinks the world has gone insane.Just as Bible prophesy predicted.”

That’s called a self fulfilling prophecy… the world has gone insane because the bible caused the insanity.

11:22 PM, August 10, 2009  
Anonymous John Hosty-Grinnell said...

The nuance here is that transgender people are sexual predators. The fact is that REAL sexual predators won't care about the laws if they want to attack a man, woman, or child. It won't matter if it is a bathroom, parking lot, elevator, etc.

Since when has a criminal said to himself "well, I can't do that, it's against the law."?

8:15 AM, August 11, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

Gender Identity is a disorder. People who suffer from this disorder may express the following characteristics:

* Disgust with their own genitals (Boys may pretend not to have a penis. Girls may fear growing breasts and menstruating and may refuse to sit when urinating. They also may bind their breasts to make them less noticeable.)

* Dressing and behaving in a manner typical of the opposite sex (for example, a female wearing boy's underwear).

* Dressing and behaving in a manner typical of the opposite sex.

Would you want a little girl or boy to see these kinds of abnormal behaviors in their bathrooms???

Yes, transgendered people are people too, but their behaviors do not need to be expressed or shown to others in such intimate areas as a bathroom or locker-room.

I am not passing transgendered people off as predators. I am not sure why you would translate my example of if I "perceive" myself to be a women story as labeling transgendered people as predators. Stop with the agenda John and just answer the questions that follow the story.

7:34 PM, August 11, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

I will have to disagree with you when you say:

"I doubt it. Men who dress as women may get into the bathroom now; and they may be a peeker, but I feel confident that just as many as get caught now will be caught if these changes take effect."

I think MORE people will take advantage of the law and scream discrimination if they don't get what they want because, and only because, of what they PERCEIVE their sexual identity to be.

I PERCEIVE myself to be a women, (I really don't, but just in case someone wants to cut & paste the statement I need to add this disclaimer)and therefore I have a right to enter a womens' bathroom...does that sound right to you Ken??

SLIPPERY SLOPE!!

7:39 PM, August 11, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"Would you want a little girl or boy to see these kinds of abnormal behaviors in their bathrooms???"

This is a far cry from the logic behind the bathroom bill. You brought up the bathroom bill in your article, it's fair game to talk about and is the angle the anti-GLBT effort has gotten behind. This is not my "agenda" we are talking about, it's yours and your group's logic.

Do you find it indefensible?

6:36 AM, August 12, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"LOL, but some sicko rapist or maybe a pedophile WILL go through that much trouble to get what they want."

Scia, these are your words I was addressing, are they not?

"What sort of rules are going to be enforced to prove anyone's sexual identity, such that they could go into an opposite sex bathroom/locker-room?"

If someone is going through the process that involves sex change they have to live as the opposite sex for at least a year. That means dressing like the opposite sex in all circumstances; work, home, etc. The government could easily change their license to read the opposite sex so that if questioned they could produce evidence that their change is legitimate. This really is a no brainer.

I am just as much on the outside of this issue as you Scia. I have no friends that are transgender save a few aquaintances and I have no clue what it is like to be burdened with their feelings. All I can do is show compassion for them and try to accomodate them where possible. Allowing them to use a bathroom is the meagerest of courtesies, how could you deny that to someone?!

As far as children go, they need to be socialized to reality. Children are not served well by keeping them ignorant. How you approach educating them on this subject is a parent's prerogative.

Would you really ask a trans man-to-woman to use the man's bathroom instead of the female bathroom when they are in a dress and look like a female? I would expect that to be much more unsettling than simply following what we do now, which is allow them to use the bathroom most suited to their look.

Imagine for me if you will someone like Ethan St. Pierre, a trans female to male. He looks every bit as masculine as I do. What would happen if Ethan had to use the bathroom at a bar and because of the law went into the ladies room instead. I would venture that drunk patrons might mistake him for the pervert you all seem to fear and beat the hell out of him before they knew what was going on.

Is this the measure of justice you offer your neighbor? Sorry, that's not good enough.

6:53 AM, August 12, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

You said:

"This is a far cry from the logic behind the bathroom bill."

Then what is the logic behind the bathroom bill John??

John, you really need to smarten up.

You said:

"The nuance here is that transgender people are sexual predators."

I responded to a question that Ken had with:

""LOL, but some sicko rapist or maybe a pedophile WILL go through that much trouble to get what they want."

What in the world does this have to do with me even REMOTELY suggesting 'transgender people are sexual predators'?????

You said:

"The government could easily change their license to read the opposite sex..."

Enough said.

You said:

"As far as children go, they need to be socialized to reality."

So, having a little girl look down toward the neighboring stall and see a women with hair growing on her toe knuckles is being 'socialized to reality'? No John, it is being exposed to a mental d.i.s.o.r.d.e.r. that the little girl should not be exposed to as she just wants to go to the bathroom and not be freaked out by some women who is in the middle of a sex organ transformation.

You ask the age ol' question:

"Would you really ask a trans man-to-woman to use the man's bathroom instead of the female bathroom when they are in a dress and look like a female?"

No, I would ask them to use a "Trans-man-to-women" bathroom so they can do their business and not disrupt the NORMAL proces that real male and females go through in a bathroom stall, where ever that stall may be.

6:28 PM, August 12, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

Why do we have restrooms? Because people (all people) need to do what Bill Cosby calls “the Lord’s work”. If I am in a men’s restroom and a woman walked in because the women’s room was full I wouldn’t care. And if I saw a guy getting too curious I’d make fun of him and embarrass him. If that didn’t correct his manners I would consider it part of being a good citizen to correct his manners for him. As long as a restroom is being utilized for its purpose (doing the Lord’s work) and that alone I fail to understand what the big deal to anyone could possibly be. If a little girl sees some hairy toes Mommy can tell her that the woman must have been a very busy person to forgo shaving for so long. I mean come on people; it’s just a frickin bathroom. As long as it’s being used for its primary purpose and not sexual gratification mind your own business.

8:17 PM, August 12, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"Then what is the logic behind the bathroom bill John??"

The logic behind the bathroom bill is geared to prevent sexual predators from using the transexual angle to gain access to the bathrooms. This has nothing to do with how little boys or girls will feel about seeing transexual people, it has to do with predators.

"John, you really need to smarten up."

Petty insults lessen you argument's substance, but feel free to fall back on them if you don't have anything better to say. ;)

"What in the world does this have to do with me even REMOTELY suggesting 'transgender people are sexual predators'?????"

The bathroom bill suggests this, not you. Sorry, I thought that was clear to all that have read Kris Mineau's manifesto on the subject. It is subtle, that's why I called it a nuance.

"So, having a little girl look down toward the neighboring stall and see a women with hair growing on her toe knuckles is being 'socialized to reality'?"

Not only do I call it reality, I could also call it Poland... (hehehe)

"No John, it is being exposed to a mental d.i.s.o.r.d.e.r. that the little girl should not be exposed to as she just wants to go to the bathroom and not be freaked out by some women who is in the middle of a sex organ transformation."

I'll grant you for argument's sake that body dismorphic disorder is a mental illness to get to a more inportant point. People have mental disorders and are allowed to go out in public; this is not 1950 where we have to keep people off the streets and out of sight. Kids ask questions, tell them the truth and show them how to treat people who are different with respect, that's what I advocate.

There are some really ugly women out there who look like men. It doesn't take a little girl to make this mistake or be taken back by someone who doesn't look the part. Look back in the law records and you'll find a case where Bradley's was sued for denying a woman access to the lady's dressing room becuase the clerk and manager insisted she was a man. She was not, she just looked the part.

The bottom line is that all trans people want is to use the facilities too, this is not a minor matter, it's civility we are discussing.

"No, I would ask them to use a "Trans-man-to-women" bathroom so they can do their business and not disrupt the NORMAL proces that real male and females go through in a bathroom stall, where ever that stall may be."

Fine, you want them to use a special bathroom? Try selling that idea to every small business owner that has to flip the bill for the extra bathroom all across America because they are regulated to have facilities accomodations; eateries for example.

9:15 PM, August 12, 2009  
Anonymous Rufus said...

What a life of fear you must lead SCIA. While I have no doubt, someone somewhere will prove your point, I firmly believe it will be an exception and not a rule.

Two points:

I have only met one person who was a female to male transexual. I would never have guessed in a million years he used to be a woman, so I have no doubt he would never be questioned in a restroom. In speaking with him, and from what I have read, most transexuals just want to live their lives and not be harrassed. They don't wnat to stick out. Unfortunately, narrow minded people want to put them in their place, and this is why an inclusive ENDA is necessary, as is the so called "bathroom bill".

As far as the bogeyman in the room, the sickos and pedefiles using this as a means to their ends, I think you are so far off. Like I said, someone somewhere will someday give you an example to proove your point. Meanwhile, you are forgetting something. These sickos and pedofiles don't want to stick out either. They don't want to be noticed, they want to blend in and appear normal. Getting caught wearing a dress to peap at women/girls, would really stick out. And if they pull the trump card of a law suit if they are called out on it, that's even more attention. Attention they can't afford if they want to keep their sexual proclivities secret.

This is just another doomsday, red herring slippery slope arguement with no real merit.

8:43 AM, August 14, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Scia, you should just give up. You don't have the manpower, organizational skills or the determination to be effective in the lies you have tried to propagate. I started my blog after yours as a sarcastic response to this satelite of KTN. Since then I have had 40,000+ visitors to your 7,900. You don't even compare to the shadow of KTN, let alone the juggernaut itself.


Why is this? Because fear is a poor motivator at best and fail completely when they are based on lies.

I've called out many of the deceptions you've had here, and even cited when you quoted the work of a known white supremist.

All the while what you could have been doing is working with your opposition to set policy that works for all parties involved.

End the war, come to the table, break bread with the "enemy", and let there be peace. You obviously are not going to win whatever it is you set out to gain.

10:00 AM, August 15, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

You said:

"The logic behind the bathroom bill is geared to prevent sexual predators from using the transexual angle to gain access to the bathrooms."

How do you come to this conclusion John? Where in the legislation is this stated??

You said:

"The bottom line is that all trans people want is to use the facilities too, this is not a minor matter, it's civility we are discussing."

No, John, it is not civility, it is granting special privlages to those who suffer from a mental disorder. Little children, or me for that matter, should not have to be exposed to a dismorphic illness just because someone is screaming "civil rights" in order to use the toilet. Who are we going to grant access to the same sex' bathroom next...lesbians and homosexuals who "swear" they are not interested in the same sex???? How far can we go with this??

8:13 PM, August 15, 2009  
Anonymous Rufus said...

How would anyone really be exposed? You really shouldn't be looking into the other stalls as people do their business, neither should any children. How are they being exposed??? Are you hanging out in public toilets checking out whose got what? It's not like transexuals are lerking about bathrooms just waiting for some unsuspecting soul to question them on their sexual identity. They just want to take a piss for crying out loud.

You really are not thinking this through with ANY logic are you.

9:20 PM, August 15, 2009  
Anonymous John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Scia, you are trying very hard are you? The illogic against the bathroom bill is clear, I'm not going to entertain your childish attempts to pretend you don't know what is being said.

You are the one who is advocating special rights, not me or transexuals. They simply want ot use the bathroom for God's sake! That is too much for you to handle?!

You're the one who proposed that they have special bathrooms.

You should rename this blog to "Bang Head HERE!"

Sheesh!

8:18 AM, August 16, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Rufus,

Why so close minded??

You said:

"It's not like transexuals are lerking about bathrooms just waiting for some unsuspecting soul to question them on their sexual identity."

How do you know that a transexual is not doing this? It just may verify their "new" identity. It may make them feel good that they are actually "fitting the part" if an unsuspecting soul does NOT question their identity. I say that some transexuals are 'lurking about bathroom', not for sexual favors, but to validate their "new" ID.

7:06 PM, August 18, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

O.K., we can go back and forth on the "logic" behind the "Bathroom Bill"...fine, why play verbal ping-pong??

Answer my other question:

"Who are we going to grant access to the same sex' bathroom(s) next...lesbians and homosexuals who "swear" they are not interested in the same sex???? How far can we go with this??"

7:12 PM, August 18, 2009  
Anonymous Rufus said...

LOL!!!!!

You're kidding right? Do you know how rediculous you sound?

What qualifications do you possess to make such a judgement call on transexuals??

And you calling me close minded? Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. What have I said for you to even suggest that?

I think you are taking a mighty leap off the deep end. But thanks for the chuckle.

5:36 AM, August 19, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

"Who are we going to grant access to the same sex' bathroom(s) next...lesbians and homosexuals who "swear" they are not interested in the same sex???? How far can we go with this??"

You mean there could be a gay man looking at me from the next stall???!!! Oh no, he might have seen my doodle.

11:04 PM, August 22, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

What I meant to say was:

"Who are we going to grant access to the OPPOSITE sex' bathroom(s) next...lesbians and homosexual MEN who "swear" they are not interested in the OPPOSITE sex????"

7:18 PM, August 23, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“What I meant to say was:…”

Oh no; I’m so afraid!! A man might see my wife wiping her butt.

10:59 AM, August 24, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

I would have thought you'd have a bigger issue with gay men being in the same bathroom as you.

So let me get this straight, women who look like men because they have had or are having a sex change should still use the ladies room?

12:49 PM, August 24, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

I should of suspected that you would answer that way because you have no morals.

John,

You said:

"I would have thought you'd have a bigger issue with gay men being in the same bathroom as you."

No, none at all, as long as they keep to there own urinal cakes!!

You concluded with:

"So let me get this straight, women who look like men because they have had or are having a sex change should still use the ladies room?"

I already answered this question with the following comments on August 12, 2009 on this thread:

"No, I would ask them to use a "Trans-man-to-women" bathroom so they can do their business and not disrupt the NORMAL proces that real male and females go through in a bathroom stall, where ever that stall may be."

If it cost extra for businesses, then so be it. People will see the ridiculousness behind it and stop the idea cold.

Some people are starting to see "the last straw" John, I wish you could.

6:19 PM, August 24, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“I should of suspected that you would answer that way because you have no morals.”

Oh yes Scia no morals at all. I eat aborted (slaughtered) children for breakfast, shoot hundreds of people during my lunch hour, drive like a crazy man through parking lots hitting parked cars (without leaving a note) on the way home, and then for a relaxing evening at home rape any female I can get a hold of. Better keep your doors locked.

Why is it that Christians always claim the moral high ground when the facts state otherwise? Studies show that there are more Christians in prison than atheists, and Christians have a higher rate of divorce than atheists. Yet Atheists have no morals. You never hear of any white supremacist groups that are also atheists. Atheists never flew planes into buildings. Atheists don’t have armed compounds. Atheists never blew up government buildings in Oklahoma. No atheists have ever killed their children and then claimed that god told them to do it. And religious people with their (false) god looking over their shoulder would NEVER do anything wrong. I mean just the possibility is ludicrous.

10:48 PM, August 24, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"If it cost extra for businesses, then so be it. People will see the ridiculousness behind it and stop the idea cold."

This may be one of the dunbest things I've ever seen written. Scia, what kind of solution is meant when you say "stop the idea cold"? People like Ethan St. Pierre are going to have to use the bathroom when out in public. Where would you have them go?

Even the red herring you use to avoid talking about transgender rights makes no sense.

3:36 AM, August 27, 2009  

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