Friday, June 19, 2009

Fistgate: Indoctrinating Your CHILDREN

I have reported on some pretty bizarre and abnormal topics regarding the radical homosexual community. I, for one, have never been so speechless and numb after listening to actual audiotape (released for the first time after a failed lawsuit by GLSEN to keep them covered-up) over what radical homosexual instructors were teaching children during a March 25, 2000 Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) workshop. The workshop included homosexual activists (who were state employees) and children as young as 12. Children were bussed in from around the state to listen to homosexual activist describe how to engage in various types of homosexual activity.

I must warn you that the tapes you are about to listen to describe in detail what your son or daughter may hear one day if they get involved with any GLSEN sponsored group in their schools.
Listen to tapes and read detailed reports on Fistgate HERE.
I had reported on Fistgate in a post dated Thursday, April 10, 2008 titled "Why Would Someone Do This?". Read this post for more details, if your not completely floored by the tapes you just listened to, regarding the dangers of Fistgate.

66 Comments:

Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

I don’t have much to say because the recordings they provide are all excerpts. And since I’ve never put much trust in the people at MassResistance I have to say their findings are suspect.

3:17 AM, June 20, 2009  
Anonymous Rufus said...

Really now, couldn't you dredge up something new anti-gay stuff? Must have been a slow week to AGAIN go back to something that happened 9 years ago.

And AGAIN, using Massresistance as a sourse really kills any credibilty to anything you have to say.

7:05 AM, June 20, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This late breaking news just in!!!! LOL!!!!!!

Slow gay-hating news week?

5:06 PM, June 20, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

Are you suggesting that the recordings are perhaps made-up?? Remember, MassResistance had to fight with GLSEN and a lawsuit over these tapes.

Rufus,

No "statue of limitations" on perverted news, especially when it further disenvows a perverted organization such as GLSEN.

5:46 PM, June 20, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

This information is 9 years old, Rufus has a good point in bringing that up. I don't think there are many poeple out there that would defend this action, but we have moved past this point and are understanding what is and isn't appropriate to teach children through dialog with the opposition.

I'm not asking for the ability to teach children that being gay is OK in spite of their parent's objections. I'm merely advocating that we should not be excluded from all teachings. There has to be a compromise that both sides can handle.

I think it would put children at a disadvantage to not learn about a whole group of people they will inevitably have contact with.

Ken Also has a good point. Is there an audio that is unedited that we can listen to?

6:29 PM, June 20, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

Write to MassResistance to get the whole tape, but I think due to the failed lawsuit that GLSEN put MR through, anyone's chance of getting a copy of the tape is slim-to-none.

What other groups of people should we teach our children about besides homosexuals?

7:45 PM, June 20, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

All groups should be spoken about, but in there proper place and time. For example, it would be foolish to try to teach a second grader about sex since their cognitive development has not yet reached that level of maturity.

I'm sure the PTA and school board can figure out what is appropriate for their specific school system.

I've never come across knowledge so terrible that I wish I hadn't known it. Our children will only be as prepared as we are if they have all the same information we have to build upon.

I trust that you can teach your children your morals and instill them in a way that my mere existence and liberty doesn't cause them to abandon your beliefs, don't you?

If what your beliefs are on such shaky ground that my example deters your children from following your expected path then perhaps you should re-evaluate them.

You certainly can't expect your neighbors to give up their God given freedoms simply because you think they are a bad influence, can you?

3:00 PM, June 21, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scia:

Your stupidity makes my head hurt.

6:33 PM, June 21, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6:46 PM, June 21, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

I had posted a response in haste, please disregard it and I had misread what was said.

6:48 PM, June 21, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Behavior, behavior, behavior. Behavior is the real issue determining what is objectionable. Fisting, sodomy, female on female practices, twisted heterosexual practices etc. etc. all fall into the same catagory.

People will do what they think is right, in their own eyes. The Bible teaches us that.

Unfortunately sexual education is being taught to young children. In some schools material found objectionable by parents is being presented [Lexington is one district]. Parents are not allowed to exempt their children from the material. In Newton, I believe [please verify, scia] the doors to the school were locked so parents could not gain access. In Andover they moved the venue of the assembly, found objectionable by parents, and did not inform the parents where it had been moved to.

John, people do teach their children morality and proper sexual behavior then those children go into the public sector and are bombarded with inofrmation contrary to their parent's teaching. Even from people that are in a position of authority and have a trust with the students.

Social engineering in schools should be abandoned. They are academic institutions.

In my town, when my children were still children, the school had an assembly for grades 9 - 12 about aids. They brought in several people with the disease. BTW, according to students, all looked like the picture of health. The school did not allow parents to attend so I sent my child to school with a portable tape recorder. One of the students asked one of the guests with the disease if they considered suicide. A pretty normal question, right?

The answer was very objectionable. His answer ~ "Understand, suicide is ALWAYS an option" Suicide is not the answer and should not be presented as an absolute to students. Just as homosexual sexual practices be taught as normal nor should hetersexual sexual practices be taught. Teaching children to be respectful and courteous to all is proper. To teach falsehoods about sexuality is improper.

God made man and woman to enjoy one another and to perpetuate the species. BUT men and women have given up or turned aside from the natural functions of sex giving themselves over to impure thoughts and actions, abandoning what God intended.

It is behavior. It will always be behavior that is the common denominater with objectionable practices. Civil rights status should never be given a disease or sexual practice/behavior.

Jesus, God in the flesh, sacrificed Himself to allow us the ability to reestablish a proper relationship to God, the Father. He died for me and He died for you.

John 3: 16-18 NLT

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

God, Himself, invites you to return to Him. Confess your sins, turn from your ways and acknowledge that Jesus is who He says He is. Your spirit will be born anew and you will become a new creature in the Christ, Jesus and a citizen of Heaven.

5:58 AM, June 22, 2009  
Anonymous Laurie H said...

Some of the comments reflect the common inability of supporters of homosexuality to make actual arguments.

First, the fact that “fistgate” took place nine years ago is not an argument in defense of GLSEN or the appointment of Kevin Jennings to the Department of Education. Although GLSEN’s tactics may have changed in response to the justifiable public condemnation it received following “fistgate,” its values, beliefs, and goals have not. John Hosty-Grinnell talks about “moving past” “fistgate” but that begs a couple of questions: What kind of adults ever thought the conversation that took place at “fistgate” was appropriate? And what in their private conversations do adults who are committed to using publicly funded schools to normalize perversion (i.e. GLSEN members) say is legitimate course content in schools regarding homosexuality and transsexuality?

Second, Rufus and the New Village Atheist ought to provide some evidence for their ad hominem claim that MassResistance is not credible. I find MassResistance to be very credible in that they provide actual evidence for the claims they make.

Third, if the bloggers want new evidence for GLSEN’s vision for American children and public education, look no further than its website:
• GLSEN encourages public school teachers to celebrate LGBT pride month.
• GLSEN is the “proud sponsor” of TransAction Day during which they seek to have public schools celebrate and affirm the “full range of gender identities,” (i.e. celebrate yet another form of profoundly deviant sexual behavior). Here is one of the speakers available on the resources section of the TransAction Day website:

o Leslie Feinberg is a Jewish transgender activist, speaker and author. Feinberg is a high-ranking member of the Workers World Party (WWP) and a managing editor of Workers World Newspaper, the official publication of the WWP. The WWP was founded in 1959 and is a Marxist political organization that supports the struggles of all oppressed people. They support anti-imperialist agendas internationally, as well as affirmative action, anti-Iraqi invasion efforts and vari¬ous initiatives that advance the livelihood of working class people on the national level. Merging hir* working class and transgender identities, Feinberg has also published sev¬eral works that relate to these themes, including Stone Butch Blues, Transgender Warriors: Making History from Joan of Arc to Dennis Rodman, Drag King Dreams and Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink or Blue. Ze** is known as first coining the term "gender warriors." Feinberg continues to write, speak and dedicate hir time to activism along with hir life partner, poet and activist Minnie Bruce Pratt.

*”Hir” is a possessive pronoun invented by those who want to mainstream the delusion that cross-dressing and elective amputations reflect an immutable and morally defensible identity. It combines “his” and “her,” and pronounced “here.”

**”Ze” is also a pronoun concoction used for the same insidious ends as “hir.” It is a politically generated gender neutral pronoun.
• GLSEN recommends students and teachers read the document “Peeing in Peace” published by the Transgender which helps cross-dressers negotiate using the restrooms of the gender they are not. Here’s an excerpt of what GLSEN thinks students should be reading about females using male restrooms:
o Usually folks in the men’s room stand in line in the middle of the bathroom. If you need a stall and there are none, pretend you just came in to wash your hands. Don’t feel out of place for using a stall. People who use the men’s room sit down sometimes too and will use a stall whether or not the urinals are full. If you need to sit down to pee and are worried that someone will notice, try using a can lid or medicine spoon to stand. You can also try one of the various stand-to-pee devices, such as the Mango product or the DJ Knows Dick Pissin’ Passin’ Packer, available at stores and online.

Yes, Kevin Jennings and his brainchild GLSEN are utterly mainstream, and MassResistance is kooky.

2:03 PM, June 22, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

I stand by my previous assertion that children need to be as fully informed as we are if they are to have the same grasp on the world as we do. How and when we teach them what we know is up for debate. Deliberately creating ignorant children is never a sound social policy.

Most GLBT people I know merely want to see a society where there is an understanding of both our differences and our equality. We live in a world where there are many differences, we don't need to embrace those differences in order to live in peace with them.

2:52 PM, June 22, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

OMD,

Yes, the doors at Newton North High were locked.

5:41 PM, June 22, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

Any response to Laurie H's comments, which are above your latest comments?

Thanks John,

Scia

5:50 PM, June 22, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

Scia;
“Are you suggesting that the recordings are perhaps made-up??”

Not at all; but what bothers me is what could possibly have been said before or after what I heard. It’s only too easy to distort what is said on a recording by leaving parts out.

OMD;
“Civil rights status should never be given a disease or sexual practice/behavior.”

Hey can we end civil rights status for religion too?

“Jesus, God in the flesh, sacrificed Himself to allow us the ability to reestablish a proper relationship to God, the Father.”

Oh so touching; he sacrificed himself for us because he loves us… But look at what he is protecting us from; himself!! Makes me think of a gang collecting “protection” money from a small business. The small business must pay the gang or the gang will destroy the business.

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son,”

Wait a minute, you just said Jesus was god in the flesh???!

Laurie H;
“…the New Village Atheist ought to provide some evidence for their ad hominem claim that MassResistance is not credible.”

The fact that they incorrectly use a quote from the Goodridge decision is enough for me; if it’s not enough for you so be it. If you want to believe MassResistance is as trustworthy as some see the bible that is up to you; I decide what is trustworthy to me and scoff at you for demanding evidence for my opinion.


Lastly I don’t believe that using a part of a group to stereotype an entire group is justifiable. Should the Catholic priests that molested children be a reason to demonize Catholics? Should the KKK be used to demonize Protestants?

My issue at the beginning of my fight for the rights of homosexuals to marry was simply a fight for freedom. It still is. And even if “fistgate” actually happened the way it has been proposed by MassResistance it would not make me change my mind. John Hosty has said that he deserves to be judged on his merit individually. Yet so many want to judge him on the merits of the extreme fringe.

4:27 AM, June 23, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Laurie H, here's what I find on their website:

OUR MISSION
The Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network strives to assure that each member of every school community is valued and respected regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.

We believe that such an atmosphere engenders a positive sense of self, which is the basis of educational achievement and personal growth. Since homophobia and heterosexism undermine a healthy school climate, we work to educate teachers, students and the public at large about the damaging effects these forces have on youth and adults alike. We recognize that forces such as racism and sexism have similarly adverse impacts on communities and we support schools in seeking to redress all such inequities.

GLSEN seeks to develop school climates where difference is valued for the positive contribution it makes in creating a more vibrant and diverse community. We welcome as members any and all individuals, regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity/expression or occupation, who are committed to seeing this philosophy realized in K-12 schools.

Do you (anyone interested in responding) find these goals objectionable, and if so, why?

8:46 PM, June 23, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:24 PM, June 23, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

I have made my share of nasty comments, but I do so under my own name. Care to introduce yourself Anonymous?

9:32 PM, June 23, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi. I'm anonymous. Nice to meet you.

My name is immaterial.

8:05 AM, June 24, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Fair enough.

4:41 PM, June 24, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John Hosty and others,

As you can see I have deleted Anonymous' comments because he/she can not articulate himself/herself without profanity and childish comments.

I may have to initiate the "moderation of comments" application if Anonymous, or anyone else for that matter, wishes to engage in childish dialog.

Considering that I just finished sending out many newsletters with the current post as the main issue, there will be many people who will answer in the manner that Anonymous has done. In such situations I will moderate all comments and then publish all of those that do not contain disgusting language.

Sorry for the inconveinence.

Thank you John Hosty and others who have engaged in dialog without profanity.

Scia & Staff.

6:30 PM, June 24, 2009  
Anonymous John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Scia,

I think you have a right to expect we disagree respectfully, although through the years we have both at times missed that mark.

When our anger gets the bet of us we lose any ability to have meaningful dialog and the progress that follows.

There are only a few out there that get me going enough to be openly hostile to someone, and even then I know it's a waste of my time to do it.

I noticed that comment moderation solved my similar issues, we will still be here to talk regardless.

7:58 PM, June 24, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Ken, As we have had this conversation before, you are fully aware that God is a triune being consisting of God the Father, God the Son [Jesus, God in the flesh] and God the Spirit.

We are made in God's image too, being made up of mind, body & spirit.

Jesus was crucified to be the atonement of sin. This defeat of sin through Jesus blood sacrifice [known as a cut covenant] allows us the ability to turn away from our sin and stand before God as a joint heir with Jesus. There is no way to earn this standing. There is no work you can do to pay for it. Salvation is a free gift when one recognizes Jesus as the atonement for sin and Messiah [Savior]. You can only approach the throne of God through Jesus. He taught that in John 14:6 ..."No one comes to the Father except through me."

You are smarter regarding this than you portray and I think you just like playing the role of "devils advocate" just for the sake of it.

Whether you find the love of God/Jesus touching is a moot point. It is real and all anyone needs do is accept that love and forgiveness. Beleive or not. It is your choice.

As for the rest of the post I wrote. I see that the major point of homosexual sexual behavior has been evaded or ignored. I know I have stated on many occasions that I believe that ALL people should be treated with dignity and respect and have that reasonable expectation. That's where it stops though.

11:29 PM, June 24, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, my work here is done.
I will now leave it to Ken and John to try to convince Scia that the earth is round, while OMD occasionally pipes in with a diatribe on his invisible friend and Space God.

I can't be bothered. It became so boring.

6:19 AM, June 25, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“We are made in God's image too, being made up of mind, body & spirit.”

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up that claim? I can provide evidence to the contrary.

How is your god any different than a mob boss? The mob boss wants money; god wants love/acknowledgement. If you don’t provide either with their particular form of currency they will end your life or make life miserable. At least the mob boss doesn’t try to make me like him; he doesn’t care one way or the other. Your god wants my love which is far more valuable than money. And I am one that does not give love easily.

“You are smarter regarding this than you portray and I think you just like playing the role of "devils advocate" just for the sake of it.”

I understand this is what you believe, but I am looking for the why.

“Beleive or not. It is your choice.”

It is not my choice. One cannot choose to believe in something; they either do or do not. I don’t believe in fairies, unicorns or leprechauns because I have found nothing through my life that could validate their existence. Should I substantiate your god with any less evidentiary standards than the kind I would employ for validating fairies?

“I see that the major point of homosexual sexual behavior has been evaded or ignored.”

Yes I did ignore that point and I meant to as well. When you can provide reasonable claims as to why one should not “choose” to behave as a homosexual I would then be inclined to address that point. Your biblical morality doesn’t work; the claims of homosexuality being unnatural do not work and neither do the claims of health work. If you wish me to explain why they don’t work I can.

3:47 PM, June 25, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“I can't be bothered. It became so boring.”

Maybe if you would actually provide a dialogue rather than short inflammatory comments you might get more out of it.

3:50 PM, June 25, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Ken, you, in fact, do have a choice to believe or not believe in anything noty just God. Whether you believe Jesus is who he says He is or not is a choice YOU make. It is a conscious decision/choice.

From Plato, Laws, 636c

"Whether one makes the observation light-heartedly or in all seriousness, one must observe that, when the male body unites for procreatuion with the female, the pleasure that goes along with this is understood to be in accordance with nature, but that when males joins with male, or female with female, it is outsdie the bounds of nature. This outrage was first done by people whose desire for pleasure was without self-control."

Ken, to the best of my recollection, you have never indicated whether you believe evolution or creation, I suspect, from your words, that you favor evolution. Let me ask you this, in order for something to be created there had to be something in existence to base the creation on, in that case how do you create something from nothing?

If you can tell me that then your arguement about there being no God would hold water.

But if there is a God and you do'y believe there is, well... that is your choice.

P.S. I agree with you regarding anonymous.

Grace and Peace to you from God and from the Lord Jesus, the Christ.

He invites you to come to Him. It's your choice. He will not force you nor override your free will. BUT He will take you as you are and begin any and all repairs.

10:14 AM, June 26, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

OMD, could you possibly just choose to believe in fairies without any evidence to change the mind you have?

“Let me ask you this, in order for something to be created there had to be something in existence to base the creation on, in that case how do you create something from nothing?”

The big bang theory suggests that prior to the bang itself all matter was compressed into something about the size of an electron. That is where our knowledge breaks down. We currently do not have the scientific knowledge necessary to explain the universe prior to that point; that however does not mean that we will not have that knowledge in a year or ten thousand years. But science will keep looking. Science will not give up and say that the knowledge is pointless; that god did it.

“If you can tell me that then your arguement about there being no God would hold water.”

I disagree. You act as if the god belief is the “default” belief. I don’t so much say there is no god but that I don’t believe in god. You and others tell me that there is; and when I ask for evidence I am told to have faith. Could I ask you to have faith in something that does not exist? No; and I would be an imbecile to do so. Just as I believe that you are playing the part of an imbecile when you tell me to have faith in a god. I am not sitting here telling you to believe in something; I’m telling you to question your current beliefs. If I told you that I had a fairy talking to me right now would you believe me? If I told you to just have faith what would you think of me? For me to justify the talking fairy statement it would be upon me to provide evidence for that, not for you to provide negative evidence for it. Why is the argument of god’s existence any different? Why should I have to prove that god does not exist and you not prove crap?

No comments as to how god is any different than a mob boss? You also stated that we are of mind body and spirit. Are you going to ignore my request for evidence of the spirit part? Apparently I must just choose to believe any snake oil salesman that says he has a cure for what ails me simply because I can not prove that he doesn’t. Such wisdom.

5:34 PM, June 26, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

OMD,

I agree with Ken that faith cannot be forced or contrived, it either is or is not present. You seem confused that someone would rather be honest about their lack of faith in your beliefs than simply gloss over the subject of religion.

I think what matters most is something you just said; "I believe that ALL people should be treated with dignity and respect and have that reasonable expectation."

How do your actions manifest this belief? What as an equal citizen and neighbor should I expect from you? Knowing what we can and cannot expect of each other goes a long way to solving the fears each side has for the other.

2:22 PM, June 27, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

John, I believe you mistake my intentions. You are in agreemnet with Ken but ignore my statement He invites you to come to Him. It's your choice. He will not force you nor override your free will." So how does anyone force you to believe? You either choose to believe or not to believe. YOUR CHOICE [emphasis only]

John, you wrote - "How do your actions manifest this belief? What as an equal citizen and neighbor should I expect from you? Knowing what we can and cannot expect of each other goes a long way to solving the fears each side has for the other."

What actions do you speak about? Do you mean that because I am not in agreement with the homosexual movement and find the sexual behavior to be unnatural, that I am a hateful, disrespectful person? Is it because I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God given to mankind and that, that word teaches that homosexual behavior is not natural? Am I entitled to my believes and opinions or would the homosexual community prefer that the government take away our err my freedom of speech [civil discourse, please] and the homosexual community can keep theirs? Please explain how my actions have impeded on you.

You can be whatever you want to be and live whatever way you want. That's your choice, isn't it. No comments on Plato?

Jesus, Himself knocks on the door of each persons heart. He will not force Himself in. He waits at the door for you to open it and invite Him in or close it in His face. He will be waiting there up until your last breath waiting to be invited in. He is not the big bad wolf who will huff and puff and blow your door in. He loves you and patiently awaits your decision.

7:17 PM, June 29, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Ken, terms like mob boss are infantile.

We who believe in Jesus do so freely. Not one of us was forced by edict of man nor edict of government. We did so of our own free will. We chose.

I place an invitation out there for all that choose to come to Jesus. Talk with Him ask Him to move your heart so you can understand the evidence which surrounds each one of us daily. Tell Him of your unbelief and why you don't believe.

You yourself have said that you would like to believe and that you leave room to believe, which kinda makes you agnostic rather than atheist.

I was watching a show last evening about Stephen Hawking and his theory regarding where the Universe got its start. Hawking was so disheartened that he admitted it would be eaiser to believe that God created the Universe. He got it down to matter the size of an electron, as you stated. So, if this matter, which had to be created because it couldn't come into existence by itself, is created who created it? As soon as science can create something from nothing the you will then be satisfied that man is god. [Which man is not].

The key here is the word "matter" This indicates that matter existed. Who created the matter? Where did the matter come from? It would be much better if science and religion worked together, imho.

Ken, Jesus, Himself knocks on the door of each persons heart. He will not force Himself in. He waits at the door for each of us to open it and invite Him in or close it in His face. He will be waiting there, up until your last breath, waiting to be invited in. He is not the big bad wolf who will huff and puff and blow your door in. He loves you and patiently awaits your decision, praying that you choose Him. I pray that also.

7:36 PM, June 29, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“Ken, terms like mob boss are infantile.”

Really? How so? Is it only because you don’t want to see the correlation?

“Not one of us was forced by edict of man nor edict of government.”

Oh sure; believe in god or go to hell; that’s not forcing belief at all.

“You yourself have said that you would like to believe and that you leave room to believe, which kinda makes you agnostic rather than atheist.”

You really should check terminology before making such a preposterous statement. Agnostic is a term for whether or not one knows if god exists or not. Atheist is a term for what one believes. I am an atheist because I do not believe.

“So, if this matter, which had to be created because it couldn't come into existence by itself, is created who created it?”

So you believe in a god of the gaps. We currently do not have the knowledge of how it could happen and so we fill that knowledge with supernatural claims.

“It would be much better if science and religion worked together, imho.”

Scientists used to try to work with religion; religion tried to kill the scientists when scientists started learning about the evolution of man and the construct of the universe.

“He loves you and patiently awaits your decision, praying that you choose Him.”

I deny his love exists. He wants me to love him; and if I do not he sends me to a place where I will suffer for eternity. I love my son. And if he did not love me back I would not punish him. It would be my own fault if my son didn’t love me, because actions speak louder than words. If I did not show my love for my son in a manner he could comprehend it should be no surprise to me that he doesn’t love me, because I never earned that love.

And once again you completely sidestep the crux of the conversation, which is why should I believe in something that no one can provide evidence for? Why is the existence of god the default position? How is god different than a mob boss? If you don’t know say you don’t know; but don’t give me the same old tired rhetoric that I should just believe. That wouldn’t stand for anything else in this world; why should the standards of evidence be lowered for such?

4:39 AM, June 30, 2009  
Anonymous Rufus said...

Does God have a God? If God is proven to exist because averything created must have a creator, then who created God. Then, who created God's creator?

I'm not being flip, I just find this argument to prove God exists to be too simplistic, and ultimately irrelevent. The belief in any god is a learned act of faith.

...and this comes from someone who does believe in God. I just don't believe in the bible. To me it's just a book written by men to help explain God within the context of their time. Just my 2 cents.

10:09 AM, June 30, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"What actions do you speak about?"

Well, it would be a start to hear unilaterally from those opposed to homoseuxality that violence is wrong and won't be tolerated.

Next we could discuss how we treat each other in public. Civility brings dignity and peace to both sides and should be observed by everyone. there is little point in name calling or berating each other publicly.

We need to agree that inclusion does not contritute acceptance. Just because I am invited to the neighborhood picnic doens't mean you have to approve of my life choices to also attend. Public areas are just that, for the public, and any type of discrimination should be prohibited.

"Do you mean that because I am not in agreement with the homosexual movement and find the sexual behavior to be unnatural, that I am a hateful, disrespectful person?"

No, your actions and intents define this. You can agree to disagree and do so in a civil fashion. The same exact social expectations apply to all those who you may disagree with.

"Is it because I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God given to mankind and that, that word teaches that homosexual behavior is not natural?"

People might not want to admit I am also Christian, but that omission doesn't change that fact. I am well versed in the Bible and can find no passage in the Gospel that says anyhting about homosexuality. There is much debate about what words are used and whether or not the translations have been accurate. One should acknowledge that there are over 5,000 versions of the Bible, so to say that your version is the inerrant word of God would be quite a statement.

Tell me, are you Kosher? This is also the inerrant word of God, yet people have come to see Levitican law as something no longer followed. If you are going to say that we should follow the Bible to the letter in one aspect it seems to make sense that we should follow it in all ways. Otherwise it seems like you are cherry picking what is your personal agenda rather than following Him.

Lastly, I have to say that your action of constantly telling Ken he can be saved I find quite rude. He is an atheist and you seem to be using God to annoy him, which is in particularly poor taste if it's true.

Try being civil and being that example you wish others to lead and they will find their own way through you. If you tell anyone they can be saved in each exchange you can be sure that it will annoy them and they will tune out.

2:07 PM, June 30, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

6:29 AM, July 03, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Ken & John - I had made a post to you all and for some reason it did not post.

Mob boss - God forces no one to come to Him. He forces no one to love Him. As a matter of fact it is God Himself who loves us, unconditionally. Love comes gradually. We who 'know' Jesus love Him of our own free will not because of some dictitorial edict from God.

Actions have consequences. That is just life whether you like it or not. Belief or non belief in God also has consequences. Just as in life.

On the other hand a mob boss 'forces' you to follow him. A mob boss forces his way into your life. He'll break your legs, pound your skull, maime you, threaten your family just to force you into submission. If you do not submit then he'll kill you. With a mob boss you have no choice, you have no free will. With God you have choice and free will. For example, I freely chose to follow Jesus. It was my decision. Over the years I have my affection for Him has grown and continues to grow as I realize, fully, what He did for me. God has no reason to provide salvation to mankind. Mankind is in rebellion to God. Mankind's father is the father of lies, satan.

There is a difference between force and choice.

8:01 AM, July 08, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

John,

Misguided violence of any kind is wrong. And should not be tolerated from either side.

Berating from either side is also unacceptable. During the marriage amendment debates I was displeased by both sides actions. Squaring off on opposite sides of the street
chanting, holding ridiculing signs, ringing bells, beating drums and what have you is nothing more than hurling verbal stones at each other. I asked the leadership of the traditional proponents to stop this and have the people lead in prayer. I asked a person on the homosexual side to get to their leadership and request the same thing. Nothing happened. Their hearts were already hardened.

Inclusion does not mean acceptance of a behavior or recognize that behavior as normal. If overt homosexual, ahhh... affection was taking place at a public picnic I would have to object to that. Especially when there are little children & young teens around.

Clarify please what my actions and intentions are that you refer to. I have not been disrespectful nor lacking in civility towards you or anyone in this forum.

There are many in the world that claim Christianity but I have come to learn that the use of the term Christianity is a broad brush. When I use that term I am referring to those who have repented of their sins, vow to change their ways, i.e. give up sinful habits or behaviors and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior i.e. God in the flesh. Is that what you mean by Christianity?

I've never said that 'my' version of the bible is the inerrant word of God. WHat I have said is 'the bible IS the inerrant word of God.

Kosher? Nope. As a matter of fact the apostle Peter was shown that he could eat all foods. When I am in a Jewish home I follow their customs and when they are in mine they follow ours. The apostle Paul teaches that we are all one in Christ. There is no Jew or Gentile. We no longer have to follow all the rituals. There is no circumcision or uncircumcision. You can read that in Galatians.

Regarding homosexuality, there are several places in the bible where it is mentioned - Deuteronomy & Romns are 2 places. Am I correct in my perception that you are really saying the WORD homosexual does not appear and/or Jesus said nothing about homosexuality?

Maybe my frequency can be looked at with regard to an official invitation. Ken has stated to me that he wants to believe. I believe he also makes that statement on his blog. One that holds out the possibilty of God is agnostic. If in the course of trying to explain or clarify how one establishes faith or reaches out to God constitues invitation...

Those who tune out do not have ears to hear. They have already decided not to hear. My prayer is that someday they will be able to hear.

8:32 AM, July 08, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“A mob boss forces his way into your life. He'll break your legs, pound your skull, maime you, threaten your family just to force you into submission. If you do not submit then he'll kill you.”

And what does god do? He sends us to a most unpleasant place I believe is called hell. So what’s the difference again?

“Over the years I have my affection for Him has grown and continues to grow as I realize, fully, what He did for me.”

And what exactly did he do for you? He died right? Do you have any idea how many others have died for you? Died for your freedom? They gave up everything! Not just their earthly bodies but their wives and children and friends and others. They’re dead; and I mean really dead. They didn’t have a way to be the god of the universe, they just died. And somehow this supposed sacrifice from Jesus is supposed to mean more to us? I consider it miniscule compared to other mortal sacrifices; when they died, they died.

And I’m still waiting to hear why I should consider the evidence for god with more value than the evidence of other mythological creatures.

5:24 PM, July 08, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"Berating from either side is also unacceptable."

If you'd like to work towards this noble goal I will match your effort. I mostly reserve my vitriol for those who have given it to me first.

If it's all the same to you and you are not trying to insult GLBT people I'd ask you use the accepted vernacular (gay) instead of the word homosexual. GLBT people find the latter an intentional insult.

"Inclusion does not mean acceptance of a behavior or recognize that behavior as normal."

People are free to express themselves as they choose so long as that expression does not harm others. What you find acceptable and normal should not be imposed on others and their freedoms.

I would agree that there is acceptable public behavior standards, but they are not orientation specific.

"When I use that term I am referring to those who have repented of their sins, vow to change their ways, i.e. give up sinful habits or behaviors and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior i.e. God in the flesh. Is that what you mean by Christianity?"

Romans 14 is one of the many passages in the Bible that enforce the idea we should not judge one another. What you said above seems to imply that your opinion constitutes real Christianity. We are all imperfect sinners who should try harder to pay attention to what Christ told us was most important, above all other laws; love.

"What I have said is 'the bible IS the inerrant word of God."

There are significant differences in the translations of the different versions of the Bible, so which one is without error?

I said that no where in the Gospel was homosexuality mentioned. What books are they again?

"Those who tune out do not have ears to hear. They have already decided not to hear. My prayer is that someday they will be able to hear."

That's all fine and well, just be sure that you don't come off pompus or arrogant because instead of leading people to Him you will be the wedge that seperates the two. When someone brings up their religion with every breath around someone who has a differing belief you must reckognize that it creates friction, and not in a good way.

I think if Christ were on Earth He could sum up our needed lesson in two words; play nice. ;)

6:29 PM, July 08, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

John,

Educate me why a person with same sex behavior desires AND acts on those desires finds it an insult to be referred to as a homosexual? I'm not being idiotic about this I'm quite serious. Personally, I see the use of the term 'gay' as a word to dilute or sidestep the term homosexual making the behavior appear less serious.

You have selected sentences to reply to and in effect have presented them out of context, inadvertantly or purposefully makes no difference.

Overt homosexual behavior, in public, where there are impressionable children, is not acceptable at all. This is the battle that your community is waging on the rest of society. You are suggesting that the sexual behavior of a gender group of people should be an accepted behavior. Do what you want in private, that's your business but please do force society to accept a behavior they do not accept as natural. It has never been considered a natural behavior. Yes, praticed BUT never considered natural.

Are you using Romans 14 as a verse condoning homosexuality? I have not judged you. I have no malice towards you. I can treat you respectfully, acknowledge your strengths, have a beer with you etc. etc. BUT it does not mean that I must accept "same sex" sexual behavior as normal. It is what it is...SIN

Now, you did not answer my query. What is your definition of "Christian"? I've explained what it means to me. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Homosexuality mentioned - I have said that the term homsexual(ity)
is not used. But in Romans 1:26 & 27 KJV this type of behavior is exposed. There are other areas of the Bible but I am not going into a Bible study on this. I have checked the NIV, NASB, KJV a Bible produced in 1599 & 1 in 1560. The last 2 are called the Geneva Bible. I am not a Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic scholar & I have stated that I suspect you are not either.

I will repeat - The Bible is the inerrant word of God given to mankind. To agrue about versions is really a weak position.

Romans 1:26 & 27

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


We can go round and round. According to Biblical standards the same sex sexual behavior is unnatural and is sin. Many choose to pick and choose those parts of the Bible that they agree with. In conversations that I have had with other 'gay' people regarding homosexual sexual behavior they will typically say that Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality and that is correct. Jesus did not come here to comdenm people. He came here to forgive people i.e. save them. He took the sinner and said to them "Go and sin no more" People know what their sin is. You know yours and I know mine.

We are having a discussion about belief. AND yes, Jesus taught, love your neighbor as yourself. But he did not say affirm sin.

I am speaking of particular sexual behaviors - That between 2 people of the same gender.

8:07 PM, July 12, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Ken,

Sometimes I think you are not even making an attempt to listen and hear.

Look around you. See the complexity and wonder of all that is around you.

You say you want to believe. You said it on your blog. You said it to me. I can say nothing to you that will magically cause you to believe. THAT, you have to seek on your own. I have explained to you a manner to go about it.

Open your mind and heart JUST for an instant and call out to God. Say you don't believe but you would like to believe. Say IF YOU ARE REAL MAKE IT EVIDENT TO ME IN MY LIFE. SHOW ME GOD, PLEASE SHOW ME YOU. [caps for emphasis only].

Now, Ken, God may act instantly or He may act over time. What you are agreeing to do is to remain open to the possibilities.

If you are unwilling to do that then we really have nothing left to discuss regarding God.

In life there are consequences for every action we take. Would you agree that we are accountable for our personal actions, good , bad or indifferent? Now you might want to believe that there is no hereafter or maybe hope there is no hereafter. You might believe that we just get a dirt blanket. We can choose not to believe a truth. We can believe a lie but in the end we are all accountable for all our actions and thoughts.

Why do you think Jesus was even here? Read the what John the apostle wrote.

16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life!" Jesus answered. "Without me, no one can go to the Father."

Know, if you do not want to believe what Jesus said of Himself and why He was here...

8:34 PM, July 12, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“According to Biblical standards the same sex sexual behavior is unnatural and is sin.”

Answer me this OMD please; if you had to choose your neighbor from two men; Man A is a homosexual and Man B is a rapist; which would you prefer? You must choose one or the other. Your inerrant word of god suggests he would prefer a rapist neighbor. Look at the punishment for each that god commands us to do. Homosexuals get a stoning while the rapist is forced to marry his victim. Isn’t that absolutely freaking asinine? To force a victim of rape to marry her attacker? This is a sign of god’s love and his desire for justice?

“Sometimes I think you are not even making an attempt to listen and hear.”

I could say the same about you. I at least attempt to confront all of your concerns; you just ignore mine.

“Look around you. See the complexity and wonder of all that is around you.”

If god is all powerful and can do absolutely anything couldn’t he have created us anywhere at all? He could make it that we don’t need to breathe or made it that we breathe nitrogen rather than oxygen. The complexity of the universe only supports evolution. And if we look at the universe it certainly seems as though it is created to form black holes more than humans. 99.9999% of the universe is hostile to life rather than supportive. We exist on earth in our bodily form because… this is the only place where we could survive. When I look at the stars at night I don’t think “wow, god created this place for man” I think “wow, I wish I could see more.”

“…God may act instantly or He may act over time. What you are agreeing to do is to remain open to the possibilities.”

I am open to the possibility OMD, I’ve been open to it for at least 10 years. Possibly longer. It’s hard to tell and actually remember. There was a time when I wouldn’t even consider the existence of god. My wife has been poking and prodding hoping I would find something; now I am looking. Do you really think I would be so argumentative if I didn’t care? I do care, but I want something real.

“Would you agree that we are accountable for our personal actions, good , bad or indifferent?”

Yes.

Is eternal life supposed to be something I want? Why would anyone want to live forever?

5:12 AM, July 13, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"Educate me why a person with same sex behavior desires AND acts on those desires finds it an insult to be referred to as a homosexual? I'm not being idiotic about this I'm quite serious. Personally, I see the use of the term 'gay' as a word to dilute or sidestep the term homosexual making the behavior appear less serious."

Why is an African American insulted when someone calls them a nigger? Because of the intent behind the word. Those who have no idea the word is insulting should be given credit for not knowing and informed they shouldn't use it that way.

The politically correct way to address GLBT people is the term "gay". We are far more than our sexual orientation and to use the word homosexual to refer to us casts you in with the others that intend to demean us. Now that you know the choice to continue is yours.

"You have selected sentences to reply to and in effect have presented them out of context, inadvertantly or purposefully makes no difference."

There's a lot out there to respond to, I try to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Let me know where I went out of context and we can correct any misdirection, which was unintentional.

"Overt homosexual behavior, in public, where there are impressionable children, is not acceptable at all."

Overt sexual behavior of any kind is not acceptable in front of children, there is no need to specify a specific orientation.

"This is the battle that your community is waging on the rest of society."

My battle is to have equal rights and inclusion by my government. Please don't put words in my mouth or speak for me, if you want to know how I feel about something then ask.

"You are suggesting that the sexual behavior of a gender group of people should be an accepted behavior."

What is a gender group? People's acceptance of my life choices is not my battle, government is.

"Do what you want in private, that's your business but please do force society to accept a behavior they do not accept as natural."

I'll do as a please in public or private so long as I am in the confines of the law, thank you. Do you happen to know how may species of animals also have exhibit homosexual behavior? It is natural and the latest I've heard is that we are less than 5 years away from proving homosexuality is biological, not a choice.

9:19 AM, July 13, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

"It has never been considered a natural behavior. Yes, praticed BUT never considered natural."

That depends on who you ask. The APA took homosexuality off the books as a mental illness in the early 70's for a reason. Try visiting borndifferent.org and watch the 20/20 special video they have on there, then let me know what you think.

"Are you using Romans 14 as a verse condoning homosexuality?"

I'm pointing out the Christians are called not to judge one another. My sins should not be compared to your sins, nor should someone think they have the right to say to someone, your sins are bigger than mine. Let no man become an obstacle in another man's path.

"I have not judged you."

I believe you have, otherwise you wouldn't have felt entitled to put your words in my mouth. You certainly have a lot of opinions about what I think for someone who has asked me few questions.

"I have no malice towards you."

I will admit that you have been more respectful than some of the other people I've come in contact with, but the sincerety of that behavior I question. My opinion is still undetermined.

"I can treat you respectfully, acknowledge your strengths, have a beer with you etc. etc. BUT it does not mean that I must accept "same sex" sexual behavior as normal. It is what it is...SIN

I would hope that we could agree to disagree on this and have that beer without bringing up our points of contention. After all, you don't tell Jews they are Christ killers or call Muslims heathens in their presence, do you?

"Now, you did not answer my query. What is your definition of "Christian"? I've explained what it means to me. John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I follow all principals Christ taught in the Gospel. I notice that you again did not answer my point about Christ not speaking of homosexuality anywhere in there, why is that so hard for you to admit?

"I will repeat - The Bible is the inerrant word of God given to mankind. To agrue about versions is really a weak position."

It is not a weak point at all, it actually is a strong one. What if those people who were charged with translating the Gospel got words wrong, or changed them to their liking? Did you ever wonder how there can be other denominations of Chrisitianity that believe Christ loves and will marry them?

I've read the works of people who make this translation point, it's hard to argue against it once you've learned it.

I also don't believe that the Bible was to be taken literally. I don't think the world was formed in seven days, etc. I do believe in intelligent design. What are your thoughts?

"We are having a discussion about belief. AND yes, Jesus taught, love your neighbor as yourself. But he did not say affirm sin."

He also said the He alone is fit to judge. I would allow suggest that if you want people to follow His light to be more like Him, and that starts with unconditional love.

9:19 AM, July 13, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

OMD, I'm curious. If homosexuality is proven to be biological and sin is taught as something that is by choice, would that sway your opinion that it's a sin?

9:21 AM, July 13, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Scia, your staff is falling down on the job again, it's been a week since I've posted and this blog is rapidly becoming a ghost town. Any input or should we all just find some other place to occupy our time?

2:53 PM, July 20, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Sorry all,

My staff and I have been on summer vaca.

Back in town and ready for action.

Good to be back.

Thank you for your patience.

8:02 PM, July 24, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Hello John,

Been away and been very busy.

One of the arguements the "gay" community uses in that JESUS didn't say anything about homosexuality. I thought I addressed this someplace in this blog before, but I will reiterate.
You are correct Jesus while walking the face of the Earth did not say anything about homosexuality.

Jesus came to a world where everyone was a sinner... that is except Him. What he would say to people he encountered was "go and sin no more" just like he did with the adultress.

Jesus IS the author of the Bible. God the Father, God the Son [who is God in the flesh i.e.Jesus] and God the Holy Spirit are all the same being.

John 1 (New American Standard Bible)

John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God gave His word to mankind. Jesus is God thus Jesus IS the author of the Bible. Many attempt to pick those sections of the bible THEY want to believe and then discount the areas they don't agree with.

1. We are all sinners
2. Your sin is no greater than mine
3. Because we are sinners we need forgiveness
4. That forgiveness comes through Jesus ONLY

John 3:14 - 18

14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so (W)loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged

So John, either Jesus is a lunatic, and/or liar or He is who He says He is. If He is who He says He is then the Bible is either all right or all wrong.

I don't really care what animals do. They are not human and do not have the capacity man does. AND man was put in dominion over the animals. They do not have the ability to reason and they act out of instinct not choice.

We who are human act out of choice and have free will. We are responsible for our actions and thoughts. Animals are not.

Sex is for one man & one woman betrothed in matrimony. They are to procreate. One of the outcomes are when a man and a woman united they enjoy. ALL others are to refrain from sexual activity. ALL others, even those who have sexual desires for the same gender are to refrain AND we can because we are not animals. It's choice.

12:49 PM, July 27, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

OMD,

Well said.

John,

I would like to repeat what OMD just said in that you are a sinner as much as I am. Let's both ask for His forgiveness and sin no more.

Your brother in Christ

Scia

6:07 PM, July 29, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“Sex is for one man & one woman betrothed in matrimony.”

I wonder how many Christians broke that rule… Or is someone going to claim that a REAL Christian wouldn’t do such a thing?

“ALL others are to refrain from sexual activity. ALL others, even those who have sexual desires for the same gender are to refrain AND we can because we are not animals. It's choice.”

So, tell me OMD; what is a person who is attracted to a member of the same sex suppose to do? Deny their attractions for their entire life? Get married to someone they’re not attracted to and pretend it all feels right? Live they’re whole life denying the one thing in life that can give them some peace and happiness in this life? SCREW THAT!!!! We only live once. And to deny yourself and what you are to yourself so that MAYBE; just maybe when you die you’ll find some kind of creator out there and he’ll say “you really deserve hell, but because you believed in me you get to stay in heaven and worship me with praise for eternity” is a sin. An unforgivable sin. Because just try to imagine what kind of god would do that to one of his “beloved” creations? Is that really a god one could respect? I couldn’t. I wouldn’t. If there is really a creator god out there (yes I do believe it is possible) would he really want the ones he loves to live a life devoid of life?

Live your life to the fullest. Live your life to be happy. Live your life honoring the one rule that we KNOW would be part of any honorable god; respect one another.

3:32 AM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Let me ask my question again since you did not answer it:

"If homosexuality is proven to be biological and sin is taught as something that is by choice, would that sway your opinion that it's a sin?"

There is strong evidence that homosexuality is not a choice so it would also not be a sin. In my opinion that is why Christ never addressed it in the Gospel, thanks for finally conceding that point.

The Bible has had many translators over the years and it may be that we are reading the changes implemented by someone who didn't approve of gays. The quote from Romans literally means "homosexual offenders" or "rapists". There was a word back then for homosexuals which curiously was not used; "pederast".

The word pederasty derives from Greek (paiderastia) "love of boys", a compound derived from παῖς (pais) "child, boy" and ἐραστής (erastēs) "lover".

It is for this reason that I openly question if we are recieving the word of God or just someone's tampering of the original message.

My belief is that God is more interested in us being kind to one another and wants us to enjoy the gift of life while helping others find that same joy.

My supporting evidence for that opinion comes from when He is asked what the most important commandments are, and He replies: Love God and no other God before Him, and love thy neighbor as thy self. These are His words and His will, not mine.

Placing laws in the way of people who feel as I do attempts to force your religious will upon those who don't agree. This is not only against the Constitution, it's against God's gift or free will.

He alone is worthy to judge, I do not ask for your approval, I ask only to live in peace together while we disagree on who is right.

I do not concede that being gay or acting on homosexual attraction is a sin because in my heart I believe God creates goodness in all forms, even gays.

4:09 PM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

You said:

"I wonder how many Christians broke that rule…" to OMD's comment of:

"Sex is for one man & one woman betrothed in matrimony."

So, if there is one, or many for this topic, bad apple in the bunch then Holy matrimony is then another watered down Christian belief?

I know your waiting for OMD's response, so I will cut short of any further responses to your comments until he speaks.

6:51 PM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

You really do not know the true Word of Christ.

I pray that you do some day.

6:53 PM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Honestly Scia, if you are going to give such a dismissive reply to my comments why bother pretending you want to have dialog over the subject?

It doesn't matter if you think I know Christ or not, what matters if how you plan on living in peace with your neighbors with whom you disagree. You can either learn to live with them in relative mutual respect, or you can be a jerk to them which seems more what you'd like to do based on the way you've treated me in the past.

Funny thing is, Christ says love thy neighbor, guess I must have that wrong too. ;)

7:01 PM, July 31, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

Ken, I my utmost respect for you I have to say as kindly as I can, you have missed the point and do not understand what you are reading. Now, that's ok because you are at least honest about it and participate in the discussion.

Go back to what I wrote in my last post, i.e. from The Book of John.

When one hears the call of God and responds to that call by turning to Jesus and acknowledging Jesus as who He is and makes a covenant with Jesus THEN Jesus makes a covenant with the sinner [each of us]. We are forgiven our sins. Not that we will not sin again BUT we will be very aware of them and can go ask for forgiveness. NOW, this does not give us the right or license to go out and sin and then just ask for forgiveness. That would be a mockery, wouldn't it?

God, adopts us into His family with all the rights a privileges that goes with being a child of God. BUT it goes even further than that. We become JOINT HEIRS with Jesus. JOINT HEIRS!! That's huge. AND we won't be sitting around just worshipping God. Heaven is filled with beings watching this theater on Earth. WE who believe in Jesus [And were truly repentent] will RULE with Jesus. We will each be given a crown BUT we will also throw our crowns at the feet of the throne of Jesus further acknowledging that HE and HE ONLY is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I pray for you Ken. I pray that God will open your ears, your heart and your mind so that you gain insight and understanding into His being.

Here's what I think ~ If you would just simply open a dialouge to God and ask Him to reveal Himself to you and to give you the capacity to unerstand and see that revelation then... without the willingness to do that you will progress no further, I afraid. God is waiting outside the door of your heart and mind. He wants to talk to you but will not force Himself on you. YOU have to be the initiator, my friend

7:16 PM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

This is exactly what I was talking about before OMD when I said you can be offensive; you are preaching rather than talking about the subject at hand. Get off the pulpit and off Ken's back... sheesh!

And that's coming from a fellow Christian.

7:27 PM, July 31, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

John, IF the homosexuality predilection is scientifically proven, beyond a doubt, to be somehow purposefully genetic it is of no consequence. The "act" of behavior, in humans, is a choice, each and every time and this is what we are discussing. The choice to ACT upon a predilection.

It does not matter what our predilection may be. The Bible is clear about its teachings regarding sexual immorality, ALL sexual immorality. It is wrong, thus, sin.

The act of sodomy, in this case, male on male sodomy is sexually immoral. Sexual desire is not required to be acted upon, because we humans were created above the animals and have the capacity for high intellectual reasoning, we are able to choose our behaviors. I might have strong desires to steal or lie or be amorous or any behavior you choose BUT, I, when in a normal state of mind, HAVE THE ABILITY to control my actions IF I CHOOSE to do so, no matter how strong my desire is.

That being the case, sex between males is a higher order thinking choice as is sex between a man and a woman. It is a conscious decision, as is the choice to obey or disobey, steal or not steal, lie or not lie, gluttony or drunkedness etc etc etc We cannot say "The devil made me do it" Note: exceptions include when one is not in a normal state of mind. i.e. drugs, alcohol, mental defect, forced rape and on and on.

The Greek culture was bereft with pedophiles. Doesn't mean it was right or sanctioned by the Creator of all. Just because culture says something is ok doesn't mean it is correct.

LOOK FOR PART 2. Seems my response is too long

8:32 PM, July 31, 2009  
Anonymous omd said...

PART 2

Next - There are NO laws that prevent anyone from partcipating in male on male sex. The laws that the homosexual community, (I use homosexual in this instance to include lesbians), wants to enact are so the sexual behavior is given government approval. Ok'ing the behavior is using the institution of marriage to say "OK, you are married now so you can have sex""because sex is for married people." It is a perversion of God's purpose for marriage. SEX IS NOT A REQUIREMENT but it IS a conscious Choice.

John, I want to go back to something you said in an earlier post. I asked you why it is considered to be an insult to use the term homosexual?

You wrote:
"Why is an African American insulted when someone calls them a nigger? Because of the intent behind the word. Those who have no idea the word is insulting should be given credit for not knowing and informed they shouldn't use it that way."

I have not been able to completely accept your answer. I could understand better if I used a term like "fag or faggot." That to me would be like using the term nigger to describe a black person. Those terms are offensive. They are Americans of African descent. Homosexuals are homosexuals. The word is not insulting.

Homosexual - Someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex


NOW, you are correct. Jesus teaches us that we should love our neighboor as ourselves. Are you perfect in that? I know I'm not BUT I do try my best.

You wrote:
"He alone is worthy to judge, I do not ask for your approval, I ask only to live in peace together while we disagree on who is right."

"I do not concede that being gay or acting on homosexual attraction is a sin because in my heart I believe God creates goodness in all forms, even gays."

Jesus came to this world, a perfect man, i.e. sinless. He came to save the world not judge it. I agree with you. We should be able to live in peace with each other. That does not mean I am required to affirm sin, any sin, mine or yours.

No one has said "gays and lesbians" are not "good". I find them to be just people, a little over the top at times. They serve in communities, in the military, government, are creative and exhibit many good qualities. That being said, because they are human they also exhibit the dark side of humanity, too, just as the rest of humankind does. Do you admit there is no place for lewd public display that takes place at so many "gay pride" parades and events? Is the homosexual community willing to stand up and tell the radical faction to knock it off? I have no quarrel with you. You can live your live anyway you choose just as I can. BUT... well, I won't whip a dead horse.

If you are concerned about proper translation then you have to realize that the words attributed to Jesus were written by mere men. Jesus didn't write anything while He was here.

The Bible is either right or wrong. It cannot be wrong sometimes nor can it be right just sometimes. Same with Jesus. He is either who He says He is OR He is a liar and a lunatic and there would be no need for His sacrfice. It is our choice to believe or not to believe. He chose to die for us so we could chose to live for Him. Our job is to die to self and take up the cross that Jesus bore.

8:33 PM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

But OMD, let us not forget that it is a sin to even have the desire for another man's woman in your heart, Jesus Himself said so. If homosexuals are born having a desire that is sinful there is a contradiction there that can't be ignored and begs the question, why would God be so cruel?

The answer is clear; He would not. He does not intend for you to police His flock for Him or to restrict my activities to what you think He wants.

"Ok'ing the behavior is using the institution of marriage to say "OK, you are married now so you can have sex""because sex is for married people."

Whhaaah? I think you may have missed the over 1,000 legal benefits that go with marriage, like not having to say Ray (my spouse) was my brother in order to get him into see me when I was battling cancer. I don't think anyone needs to provide the public with a compelling reason they should be allowed to marry, neither should I.

"It is a perversion of God's purpose for marriage."

Could you quote what statute of law you are citing here? We are living in the real world OMD, the one where we all have equal rights, or at least we are supposed to anyway. You God doesn't belong to me, I don't have to follow what you believe and you shouldn't try to defend you beliefs as suitable for governing everyone since not everyone believes what you do.

OMD, you can either use the proper vernacular as I prefer and have asked you to do politely, or you can continue using the word homosexual and know that I find it offensive. There is no confusing going forward what your actions will be constrewed as intending to communicate.

9:09 PM, July 31, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“So, if there is one, or many for this topic, bad apple in the bunch then Holy matrimony is then another watered down Christian belief?”

Not at all Scia, I was simply asking if a real Christian would have unmarried sex? Christians love to tell you that so and so isn’t a REAL Christian because a REAL Christian wouldn’t do such a thing. Does unmarried sex disqualify a person from being Christian? I also don’t believe marriage is a “watered down belief”. If anything it is a “hyped up” belief.

OMD; NOW, this does not give us the right or license to go out and sin and then just ask for forgiveness. That would be a mockery, wouldn't it?

Yes, but the problem is that Christians can’t seem to agree on many things biblical. You believe homosexual sex is sinful; John says he is Christian and disagrees with you. We’ve got Phelps saying homosexual sex is soooooo wrong it deserves death and some churches that have a homosexual preacher. We’ve got Ted Haggard railing against homosexuality when behind closed doors he likes homosexual sex although I don’t know of any churches where the preacher is a closet heterosexual. Christians can’t seem to agree on sin. You interpret the bible one way and others a different way and you all believe that you’re following the path to god. Is it any wonder why the numbers of atheists are increasing and Christian numbers are decreasing equally?

You say joint heirs; what is it that you will be receiving? I don’t like Christianity very much because it seems like an embrace of death. You say how great the life after death will be but you are discounting how great this life is. We are not some kind of fallen creation; we are just people. The earth is not corrupted and evil; it’s wonderful. I can not begin to fathom why a Christian would even want children. I mean they believe children from the time of birth or conception or whatever believe they are corrupted and sinful, born into a fallen world where the embodiment of evil is the current ruler. With that kind of mindset I would be keeping Buford in my shorts. Children aren’t perfect but they may as well be. Yet Christians want to tell them that they will go to hell if they do not believe in something that cannot be comprehended on any level. It doesn’t make sense to me. Christians want to believe that the time on earth is just a test and that life after death will be so much better because earth is corrupted. I believe in freedom; and if you want to spend your one life in the hopes of what by definition is unknowable then go right on ahead, but do not have children. Do not try to control the destinies of life loving people.

“If you would just simply open a dialouge to God and ask Him to reveal Himself to you…”

My fairy’s name is Tipling. It tells me that Omd and Scia can cross their fingers, close their eyes, and stand on tip toes that it will reveal itself to them if they really really believe, but if they hold doubts in their minds that a fairy just can’t come. So please Omd and Scia, just have faith and believe with you whole heart and cross your fingers, close your eyes and stand on your tippy-toes and you will come to know fairies are real.

“Get off the pulpit and off Ken's back... sheesh!”

No John it’s okay. I want him to preach. I want to understand. Heck I even want to understand why you believe.

6:07 AM, August 03, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Once again it seems that the conversation dies without warning leaving me to wonder what if any solutions the opposition to equality bring to the table.

You asked in another thread what questions you haven't answered Scia, this is a great example.

7:47 AM, August 11, 2009  
Blogger SCIA said...

John,

If you look up to Ken's comments he has asked you a question...balls in your court to continue this thread.

Spark it up!!

6:55 PM, August 18, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Ken, there's lots to why I believe and I think you'd appreciate the fact that most of it is based in reason instead of blind faith.

I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough to understand the origin and destiny of the Universe.

In philiosophy we spoke a lot about the "domino effect" where there needed to be a primordial "push" of the domino to get things started if you will. That would be where God comes in. One can always ask where God came from, but then that leads to my last and next point.

My professor put it in its simplest defense; its a greater leap of faith to think this all came about by shear coincidence than to notice the many patterns we see and think their is some intelligence behind their creation.

If you look at an atom you'll see electrons spinning around the nucleus much like our solar system does around our Sun. Take a bigger step back and you can see the similarities in the Galaxy, and yet again for the entire Universe.

It seems like the Universe is in a constant state of reconstituing itself while changing its forms of matter.

I'm not going to bother getting into dark matter, dark energy, or time particulate, but I do see the value of keeping our minds open to quantum physics.

Perhaps God is the some of all things that has an identity as the whole while maintaining connections with all its differences?

I know from prayer that I feel a joy to be alive that was not there before I meditated on peace and love.

It is a sociological expectation that we will transcend petty violence and crime. Although the Bible teaches us to love one another we aren't always following the message right. This is not the fault of the religion but rather it is the failure of those who follow to live the way they were taught instead of accepting fundamental changes to that way.

This would make for a great conversation sometime if you are up for it.

3:51 AM, August 20, 2009  
Blogger John Hosty-Grinnell said...

That should have been "SUM of all things". meh...

3:53 AM, August 20, 2009  
Blogger The New Village Atheist said...

“Ken, there's lots to why I believe and I think you'd appreciate the fact that most of it is based in reason instead of blind faith.”

I would, however your other comments suggest a more deistic point of view and you have stated elsewhere that you are a Christian. You went from rational to loony in one swift step. I agree that the universe could have been designed and created; but to take the extra step to thinking that this same creator needed a system of laws in place that ended with us needing a savior to prevent our unending torture or a miserable separation from god is ludicrous. This Christian god of the bible is not based on any kind of reason; but based on the hope that life is worthless and death is wonderful.

“This would make for a great conversation sometime if you are up for it.”

Hey I’m up for it. Should we discuss it here or on your own blog?

10:56 PM, August 22, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home

Powered by Blogger

Sign my Guestbook from Bravenet.com Get your Free Guestbook from Bravenet.com