Friday, November 02, 2007

Americans Still Reject Same-Sex "Marriage"

Most people in the United States remain opposed to granting specific legal recognition to homosexual partners, according to a poll by Opinion Research Corporation released by CNN. 56 per cent of respondents think marriages between homosexuals should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages.

Read full story HERE.
Don't forget the fact that 55% of the states in the good 'ol USA also have rejected same-sex "marriages" at the voter box over the past several years. Do we see a trend of what society WANTS and KNOWS is right?

23 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ooooh 56%!! WOW that’s such a HUGE majority!!!

10:53 PM, November 02, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

Do you want to talk election 2000?

8:04 AM, November 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, another “compassionate” post.

That survey data looks accurate, but I think it’s interesting that you didn’t mention that that majority (only 6%) that opposes gay marriage has been decreasing pretty consistently. And that’s the case with many gay issues (such as approving/disapproving of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell)

I did a quick search and found just a few polls that indicate that:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=273

Just like any equal rights issue, this will change over time to where people are more accepting of gays and lesbians.

btw, I’m guessing that you didn’t see “for the BIBLE tells me so”. (the trailer is on youtube) It’s a documentary that dealt with the issues that come up within families and the public due to the (mis)interpretation of many Bible passages. The movie shows how the Bible has been misinterpreted and misused to persecute gays and lesbians. It goes over many of the passages that supposedly condemn gays and shows how that one must incorporate the context and culture at the time the Bible was written. And by doing this, it shows that the supposed Biblical condemnation of gays and lesbians isn’t truly accurate.

It also shows how tragedy can happen, if one stubbornly sticks to these misinterpretations. In the film, a mother recounts how her lesbian daughter came out to her in a letter. The mother wrote back a letter basicially telling her daugher how she was not going to support her, and just overall a very non-supportive response. And much of this was based on what she thought the Bible said at the time. The daughter was so distraught by this response that she eventually killed herself.

The mother was heartbroken and chose to open her mind to the fact that maybe this non-loving interpretation of the Bible may not be accurate. The mother grew to realize that she had to drastically reevaluate her beliefs. Now the mother speaks on behalf of gay rights from a faith-based perspective.

Oh, and my favorite line from the movie is when a Biblical scholar says, “It’s ok to have a fifth-grade understanding of the Bible ... if you’re in fifth grade.”

-Gary

10:33 AM, November 05, 2007  
Anonymous KatieKat said...

“It’s ok to have a fifth-grade understanding of the Bible ... if you’re in fifth grade.”

Gary - I just LOVE this quote.
*must see this movie*

11:08 AM, November 05, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

Gary, what Biblical Scholar spoke this line?

2:09 PM, November 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't remember his name. He was one of the people who was interviewed for the movie. I'm sure that if you researched it that you could find out.
-Gary

2:25 PM, November 05, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Gary,

In your point of view, how does the Bible "misinterpret" its stance on homosexuality?

8:03 PM, November 05, 2007  
Anonymous KatieKat said...

Scia -
I'm pretty sure that Gary did not say that the Bible misinterprets its stance on homosexuality, but rather that people, that is, fallible people, frequently misinterpret it.
Gary, correct me if I'm wrong, here.

12:26 PM, November 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, Katie, your understanding is correct.

Here’s an article that explains many inconsistencies and misinterpretations:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

Here’s the trailer of the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajBR0dq0XXk

And here’s an interview with the director where there are clips interspersed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tpUwIlX1N0

Go to 1:30 in the video and you’ll see a clip that points out that while it’s an “abomination” if a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman. And they shall be put to death. A few verses before that the Bible also says that it’s an abomination to eat shrimp. If I remember correctly, the movie even points out (not in this video) that the word abomination means something more like “uncustomary” and not necessarily morally wrong.

I’m assuming that you don’t think gays and lesbians should be put to death. And you used your common sense and reason to arrive at this conclusion. If you truly value what the Bible has to say, I would think that you would be willing to examine illuminating information about it.

The concept of “reasonable doubt” that’s used in our legal system could be used here. If a defense attorney casts enough reasonable doubt then a responsible juror must consider the possibility that the prosecutor’s case may not be fully accurate.

There has been enough written about gays and lesbians and the Bible that it certainly (at minimum) gives reasonable doubt to the interpretation of the Bible condemning homosexuality.

Oh, and no comment about the fact that many polls indicate an increasing approval of gay marriage?

-Gary

3:40 PM, November 06, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

Gary, these are the same old tired arguments that people like myself and SCIA have been refuting for quite some time now.

I guess you can believe what you want to believe, Gary.

As for me, I believe that God created man and God created woman, and that was no mistake.

Isn't it that simple?

9:35 AM, November 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is the interpretation of the Bible beyond reproach?

Why is it that if someone questions current interpretations it is spun as an attack on the religion or the Bible itself?

Why is it that we can't have a conversation that allows us to discuss the merits that bring us to the modern conclusions we have?

I would think that most people would share Ken's thirst for truth.

Perhaps people are followers by nature, and free thinking is not the norm.

10:36 AM, November 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tyler, why did God creat hermaphrodytes? What sex advice do you have for those who suffer from this?

10:38 AM, November 07, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

The "modern conclusions" that you are talking about, Anon Y Mous, are those of a select few - a select few which, upon closer inspection, started with the premise that the Bible condones homosexuality, because they themselves are homosexuals in most cases.

The preponderence of Biblical scholars hold to the interpretation that homosexuality isn't part of God's plan, and that the Bible does not condone homosexuality.

I do have a thirst for truth, like Ken, but that does not mean that I accept whatever interpretation - especially a blatanly wrong one as has been put forward here - under the guise of being "open minded"! It is a fool that has become so open minded that they have allowed their brains to fall right out of their heads. You, I would assume, are no such fool. Am I correct?

With respect to hermaphrodytes, they are few and far between, and cannot be used to justify homosexuality. I believe that they are a special group in and of themselves, not to be used by those who wish to twist scripture for their own personal gain, and as such they do not bear much merit in this current conversation.

I know that God did not create hermaphrodytes in the beginning, that they came about as a result of our fallen nature - just like other genetic disorders and birth defects.

Did God create Down's Syndrome babies? Did God create Alzheimer's afflicted grown-ups? Did God create any number of the states into which a person can fall as a result of genetic disorders?

No, He did not, but He did allow them to happen for whatever reasons He chose - and He alone knows.

I cannot speak to the hermaphrodyte, as I am ill-equipped to do so.

Were you hoping to use that argument to gain a foothold in the current discussion?

12:56 PM, November 07, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

Oh, and no comment about the fact that many polls indicate an increasing approval of gay marriage?

I'll comment on that one, Gary. It is clear that society is drifting farther and farther from the moral standards of the Bible, and that people are seeking more and more to justify their own wickedness. Therefore, it is no wonder that the polls are drifting in this way. They are also drifting towards acceptance of underage and unmarried sex, are they not? And abortion is becoming quite accepted in society, as people lose their moral footing after being innundated with the message of "me-first" and "do what feels good" philosophies.

Do you disagree?

1:01 PM, November 07, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

"It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man."
Psalm 118:8

This especially goes true for "Rev." Mel White of Soulforce.org

Mr. White starts off his comments of biblical ignorance regarding the topic of homosexuality by saying on his website:

"Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior".

If Mr. White was a man of God, as he claims he is, then he would understand that Jesus, the son of God, and God Himself are of the same being. Jesus/God share the same spiritual being with the only difference between them being that Jesus presented this spiritual being in the flesh to mankind. So, another words, Jesus is God and God is Jesus, such that Jesus did say plenty about the sinful lifestyles of homosexuality and abhorred them.

As a result of not understanding this basic concept, Mr. White has therefore disenvowed whatever interpretations he has of scripture because the basic understanding of the being of Jesus and God is elementary to all men of God. Mr. White's interpretations are man-made and not interpretated the way God intended.

Also read 1 Timothy: 3-8

As for the Bible saying homosexuals should be put to death:

This is part of the Old Testament that is outside of the covenant of King Messiah (Yeshua ha Mashiach, Jesus the Messiah). The Old Testament is from the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were under a covenant with God that is no longer in effect. As a result of the resurrection of Christ, the new covenant, the New Testament, is binding to all of those who believe that He is now reigning as KING Messiah – and that He LITERALLY has taken His seat at the Right Hand of God.

Excellent questions to bring up. I value your interest in the truth.

In Him,
Scia

4:08 PM, November 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“So, another words, Jesus is God and God is Jesus…”

“As a result of the resurrection of Christ, the new covenant, the New Testament, is binding to all of those who believe that He is now reigning as KING Messiah – and that He LITERALLY has taken His seat at the Right Hand of God.”

How can Jesus be god and still sit next to god?

Ken Weaver

10:27 PM, November 08, 2007  
Blogger Bonnie Hendricks said...

Understanding the tiune being of God is difficult for many, but its really not so mysterious. You were made in the image of God, and you are body, soul and spirit, three-in-one. God is three-in-one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All are God, just as it take all three to make up you (body, soul and spirit.) So God the Father can easily be sitting on His throne, as the Son walked the earth, and when He rose to heaven He sent His Spirit, the Holy Spiri to draw men to himself.

You are a spirit, and you live in your body, and you have a soul where the mind, will and emotions are found. This is why the Bible talks of saving your soul. The mind, will and emotions must be submitted to God in order for salvation to take place.

Hope this helps,
Bonnie Hendricks

12:34 AM, November 10, 2007  
Blogger Bonnie Hendricks said...

Understanding the tiune being of God is difficult for many, but its really not so mysterious. You were made in the image of God, and you are body, soul and spirit, three-in-one. God is three-in-one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All are God, just as it take all three to make up you (body, soul and spirit.) So God the Father can easily be sitting on His throne, as the Son walked the earth, and when He rose to heaven He sent His Spirit, the Holy Spiri to draw men to himself.

You are a spirit, and you live in your body, and you have a soul where the mind, will and emotions are found. This is why the Bible talks of saving your soul. The mind, will and emotions must be submitted to God in order for salvation to take place.

Hope this helps,
Bonnie Hendricks

12:35 AM, November 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you have any idea how you made it even more confusing? You say I have a body; I most certainly do. You say I have a soul and a spirit; as far as I know the spirit and soul are the same. Use can substitute either word for each other. Also let’s say you are correct in the belief in my 3 parts; I can’t separate without causing irreparable damage to my body. Without the soul and spirit wouldn’t my body die? Now your god being perfect and all knowing and all powerful could conceivably separate, but if so wouldn’t his 3 parts get back together when they could? Or does each have its own will? Or are 2 parts like a remote control car?

Apparently there are many of you that hold a belief that god and Christ are the same; was it difficult to start believing that part? Or do you blindly trust whatever your preacher and bible teach?

Ken Weaver

8:03 AM, November 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tyler said:
"As for me, I believe that God created man and God created woman, and that was no mistake. Isn't it that simple?"

Well, yes God created man and woman. It's hard to argue with that. But I'm assuming that you're implying that therefore only a relationship between a man and a woman is acceptable. I don't believe that it is that simple. And this is what I mean when it is necessary to open your mind and be willingly to see life in a different manner than what you are used to. God is a part of any consensual, positive relationship that is loving and supportive, regardless if it's straight or gay.

"It is a fool that has become so open minded that they have allowed their brains to fall right out of their heads."
And it's also foolish (and stubborn) to be unwilling to learn new and illuminating information.

I've found this to be the case with many people. Many people would rather not change any part of their belief system. I feel that they subconsciously think that if they change one part then they'd have to look at the validity of the rest of it. I would hope that if you truly care about your relationship with God and care about others that you would be open to information that might expand on your current beliefs. If you're not open to new info, then I can only guess that it is because you are not truly interested in being more loving toward other people and would rather keep your beliefs that result in negativity and animosity towards gays and lesbians. Or maybe you get uncomfortable or fearful when asked to reevaluate your beliefs--it's easier to just believe the same thing that you were taught when you were 10 years old. For many people it's simpler to have an instruction book that just tells them what to do (and relieves them of the responsibility of the results).

I believe in God, but I've learned that it's actually easier to have a conversation about gay rights with an atheist as opposed to a fundamentalist Christian. Most of the time an atheist will listen to reason, while many Christians wants no part of a reasonable discussion if it happens to conflict with THEIR understanding of the Bible.

You said: "It is clear that society is drifting farther and farther from the moral standards of the Bible, and that people are seeking more and more to justify their own wickedness."

This is a true case of perception equaling reality. In YOUR view society is drifting away from the moral standards of the Bible. In MY view society is learning to embrace some of the true lessons that you learn in Christianity such as unconditional love and loving your neighbor as yourself. I agree that you shouldn't only do what feels good but I think you should do what feels right. And if your sexual orientation is to be gay, then there is nothing morally wrong to express that in a loving, supportive relationship with a same-sex partner. You can be gay OR straight and make decisions that are morally wrong, but they are totally unconnected to your choice of partner.

Gays and lesbians aren't going to stop existing and having loving relationships. If anything, people are being more accepting of (positive) gay relationships. Wouldn't you rather be more loving toward others or than less so? Why would you both (Scia and Tyler) spend so much time being so negative toward others? And then I (and others) throw out different ways of thinking and you just refuse to hear it. "No, I'd much rather believe in a God that is hateful and condemning." (including condemnation of gays and lesbians).

Your attitudes are what sadly make it more difficult for gays and lesbians. They don't need to be "saved" and shown the way (meaning your way). Loving support (or just neutrality would be an improvement) would be much preferred and would actually be productive. The more loving solution to any problem is always the one that is "of God." If people were more accepting, gays and lesbians would be more likely to be able to form stable, loving relationships in the open. And this would prevent people feeling that they have no choice but to suppress their true sexual orientation and live a secret life (Larry Craig and Ted Haggard, for example).

Did you actually read all of the material from Soulforce? If so, what do you think of the following?:

What about this word abomination that comes up in both passages? In Hebrew, "abominations" (TO'EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God.

Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality.

For Jewish writers of Scripture, a man sleeping with another man was an abomination. But it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to masturbate or even to interrupt coitus (to halt sex with your spouse before ejaculation as an act of birth control). Why were these sexual practices considered abominations by Scripture writers in these ancient times?

Because the Hebrew pre-scientific understanding was that the male semen contained the whole of life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the man's sperm contained the whole child and that the woman provided only the incubating space. Therefore, the spilling of semen without possibility of having a child was considered murder.

The Jews were a small tribe struggling to populate a country. They were outnumbered by their enemy. You can see why these ancient people felt it was an abomination to risk "wasting" even a single child. But the passage says nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today."
[end of quoted passage]

Scia,
So, you say that homosexuals shouldn't be put to death according to the Bible because "This is part of the Old Testament that is outside of the covenant of King Messiah"
How is one part of this same statement not relevant but the other is?:
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

-Gary

6:28 PM, November 10, 2007  
Blogger Bonnie Hendricks said...

Hi Ken,
I sure didn't mean to make it more confusing. I even misspelled the word "triune." Also sometimes called "tripartite", i.e., three-in-one. For one thing, God is never separated from Himself, He is everywhere, all at once. But there are three manifestations of Him, just as there are three manifestations of you. It takes all three to make up you. Of course, if your spirit and soul leave your body, you are physically dead.

The spirit and soul are not the same. The soul is your mind, will and emotions. When your body dies, you will no longer have mind, will or emotion. Your soul and spirit will face God. If you have asked Jesus to come into your heart, you will be in heaven with God, and when the resurrection takes place your spirit will be reunited with your body, which will be instamtly trasformed into an eternal, perfect body.

I am a student of the Bible, and it teaches that Jesus was God in the flesh, come down to reveal the heart of God to us, and to die for our sins so we could be saved. Before arguing with the Bible, one should at least read it. a good place to start is the book of John, which really reveals God's great love for us all.

I don't blindly believe what my preacher teaches. I was saved at home at my kichen table and had not been in church in years at the time. Even in Church, I take notes and check things against the Bible when I get home. If its not in the Bible, I toss it out of my belief system. And I won't go to a church that teaches false doctrine.

Its worked beautifully for me for over three decades.

Without the Spirit of God living in your spirit, you will never understand the spiritual things of God. Its just not possible.

I pray that you make that decision for Christ.
Warmly
Bonnie

9:54 PM, November 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Bonnie; thanks for your time and effort but your comments fell on a spiritually weak (possibly dead) person. In your last comment you wrote that if you don’t already have the spirit of god in you, you can’t comprehend god. I’m sorry but if that is true I’ll never be able to handle a faith. If you have read my posts here you already know I am a spiritual skeptic. For me to put a faith in god he must stand for something I can comprehend. His morality must be outstanding, his actions must be pure and his words loving. I have conversed with others and while they believe that god is most certainly the epitome of morality, I do not. At least not from what I’ve read in the bible. His actions in the bible I do not hold up as pure. The loving part certainly on the surface seems to come out in the New Testament but there seems to be an inequality there that apparently only I see. Or maybe it’s just that I want to see it.

Ken Weaver

10:21 AM, November 11, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ken,
If you don't mind me adding in my two cents here. I think it's quite beneficial for you to have a questioning mind.

I would encourage you to continue questioning and, if you want, to find your own spiritual path. The Bible contains many spiritual truths, but since it has been interpreted and passed along by men I feel that there are many parts that have been distorted. And the "inequalities" or inconsistencies are a result of that. So, I would say to feel ok with where you're at now in your spiritual growth. Your ability to question and use reason show that you're much further along than you might think.

I was brought up by parents who had me go to religious classes but always encouraged my questioning and ability to think on my own. So very early on I chose to seek my own spiritual path. My spiritual path is now very much based on God, but certainly not on the inconsistencies in the Bible that personify God as a vengeful, condemning Being. My feeling is that God is Love. There's a lot more to it, but that's the bare minimum.

If it feels right, I encourage you to seek out other non-mainstream spiritual books that might give you some answers (and probably more questions too). Or just be patient with yourself and seek information whenever you feel that it's the right time.

You have to find the books and info that feel "right" for you. Go to a bookstore and go to the spiritual/metaphysical section and peruse various titles and see what clicks in for you. I personally found Marianne Williamson's book, A Return to Love, to be immensely helpful. It's based on a spiritual text called A Course in Miracles. ACIM is a challenging read and A Return to Love is the friendlier cliffnotes. But if this book doesn't click in for you, that's fine. Just keep looking.

And as far as the Bible goes, there are many great things contained within its pages, but one has to know how to wade through the inconsistencies to find the truth. Think about it--if you were doing a research paper, would you only use one source? Or would you look for additional info to help give you as much info as possible?

Good luck and be kind to yourself.

-Gary

1:17 PM, November 11, 2007  

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