Wednesday, July 04, 2007

God is in Control

All of the early settlements from Massachusetts to Georgia consisted of Christians of all denominations, and all the early American colonies were established on Christian principles. (Montesquieu, The Spirit of the Laws (New York: Hafner, 1949, 1962), quoted in John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, The Faith of our Founding Fathers (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1987), p. 55.)

The vast majority of the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were strong practicing Christians not secular humanists.
  • 52 of 56 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Trinitarian Christians.
  • Of 55 signers of the Constitution 50 to 52 were orthodox Christians. (David Limbaugh, Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity (Washington, DC: Regnery Publishing, 25 September 2003), p. 308.)

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

  • Five were captured by the British as traitors and tortured before they died.
  • Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.
  • Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.
  • Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.
  • They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they?

  • Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists.
  • Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated, but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.
  • Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.
  • Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.
  • Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer,Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.
  • At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
  • Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
  • John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.

Happy July, 4th to you all and remember: Freedom is NEVER Free!!

Enjoy the movie: Click HERE

  • P.S. I plan on responding to ALL of your comments this Friday night. Thank-you for your patience.
    Scia

16 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity....
"Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, "Six Historic Americans," second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15

Early America does not deserve to be considered uniquely, distinctly or even predominantly Christian.... There is no lost Golden Age to which American Christians may return.
-- Mark A Noll, The Search for Christian America, 1984, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

The separation of church and state is extremely important to any of us who holds to the original traditions of our nation. To change these traditions by changing our traditional attitude toward public education would be harmful to our whole attitude of tolerance in the religious area. If we look at situations which have arisen in the past in Europe and other world areas, I think we will see the reasons why it is wise to hold to our early traditions.
-- Eleanor Roosevelt, New York World-Telegram, June 23, 1949, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Anyone who knows history will recognize that the domination of education or of government by any one particular religious faith is never a happy arrangement for the people.
-- Eleanor Roosevelt, letter to Cardinal Spellman, July 23, 1949, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
-- Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis in "Lincoln the Freethinker"

It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.
-- Abraham Lincoln, chiding the editor of a Springfield, Illinois, newspaper, quoted from Antony Flew, How to Think Straight, p. 17

"In religion, Mr. Lincoln was about of the same opinion as Bob Ingersoll, and there is no account of his ever having changed. He went to church a few times with his family while he was President, but so far as I have been able to find out, he remained an unbeliever. Mr. Lincoln in his younger days wrote a book, in which he endeavored to prove the fallacy of the plan of salvation and the divinity of Christ."
-- Judge James M Nelson, who had an intimate acquaintance with Lincoln in Washington, in the Louisville Times, in 1887, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beleifs of Our Presidents, p. 137

He [the Rev Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-- Benjamin Franklin, from Franklin's Autobiography

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (attributed: source unknown)

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in Norman Cousins, In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (1958), p. 108, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.
-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."
-- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa Green "was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington's administration." -- Farrell Till in "The Christian Nation Myth.")

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans

"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'"
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26

"Unlike Thomas Jefferson -- and Thomas Paine, for that matter -- Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life."
-- Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) pp. 74-75, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church." Had Washington been a pious Christian, he would have at least mentioned the name of Christ!

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason, pt. 1, "The Author's Profession of Faith" (1794), quoted from The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations

The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5), quoted from Jonathon Green, The Cassell Dictionary of Cynical Quotations

Of all the tyrannies that afflict mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst. Every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in, but this attempts a stride beyond the grave and seeks to pursue us into eternity.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson, considering three different explanations for why sea shells would be found at higher elevations than one should reasonably expect an ocean to have existed, in Notes on the State of Virginia ††

[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to James Sullivan, 1797. ME 9:379

And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.... error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.... I deem the essential principles of our government.... Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; ... freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected.
-- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers, 2:545

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshiped by many who think themselves Christians.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price from Paris, January 8, 1789. (Price had said, "There has been in almost all religions a melancholy separation of religion from morality." Surely Jefferson is using the word atheism as a synonym for wickedness or immorality; this was a common and accepted usage of the word 200 years ago. -- Cliff Walker)

If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, in a reply to John Adams' letter, quoted by Joseph Lewis in his address "Jefferson the Freethinker," delivered at a banquet of the Freethinkers' Society of New York on the evening of April 13th, 1925, at Hotel Belleclaire, 77th Street and Broadway, New York City, in honor of the 182nd anniversary of the birth of Thomas Jefferson.

Art. 11 Of the Treaty of Tripoly. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Ken Weaver

10:19 PM, July 05, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I found it odd that you would use the quote “One Nation under god”. We didn’t add “under god” to the pledge until 1954. “In god we trust” was added to coins in 1864 and didn’t become a national motto until 1956. If our founders actually were so hard in their belief that we are a nation built upon the principles of Christianity wouldn’t they have been sure to have a record of such? In our constitution there is no mention of Christ. If we are such a nation based on Christianity what does that entail? What would be our responsibilities as a Christian nation? As a citizen of said nation, what becomes our responsibility, to be good Christians? Does the saying of a nation built upon the precepts of Christianity enforce a religious code on all citizens of that nation? Do our soldiers who fight and die have to know the bible so as to convert our enemies to become our brothers?

Do the soldiers of our so called “Christian nation” fight for Christianity or for something that has defined our nation since day one; freedom. Freedom has been in the writings of all of our founding documents, while god is referred to rarely and Christianity in particular practically never. Are we only a great nation because the majorities profess a belief in god, or are we a great nation because we are free. Did god make our country strong because we were better Christians than the British? Did god like us better? If god was able to see the future of our country and how “un-Christian” we have become wouldn’t he have picked some other country to ensure his will be done?

I like to think of what it means to be an American. If our defining attribute is Christianity, then neither I nor many citizens deserve to be called American but call us moronic, for believing that our nation was built for one single minded purpose, freedom.

Ken Weaver

3:08 AM, July 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

• “52 of 56 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Trinitarian Christians.

56 of 56 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were freedom fighters; not zealots bent on having any one religion holding the populace to their religious morality.

• Of 55 signers of the Constitution 50 to 52 were orthodox Christians.”

Of 55 signers of the Constitution all 55 wrote the constitution in a manner to keep the people free from all kinds of tyranny; even the Christian kind.

Ken Weaver

1:54 PM, July 06, 2007  
Anonymous BobApril said...

Here you go. This site pretty thoroughly debunks your post. Enjoy!

6:08 AM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

BobApril,

I am in the process of investigating your US Treaty with Tripoli theory.

As for your reference to Snopes.com: I frequently visit that site when I receive e-mails regarding lost children, ect. Thank-you for updating me on the version of the information in which I posted. Although the information may be "jazzed-up", I still take the baseline info presented as fact. The excess hipe I can even do without, but I stand by the overall information given considering it is backed up by historical peer-reviewed journals and experts in which I researched when compiling the information.

Thanks for stopping by.

7:02 PM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

"an Episcopal minister"

I rest my case.

As for your "quotes" from our founding fathers - Your sources have distored facts in comparison to what these founding fathers thought of God, Christ, ect.

You asked:

"If our founders actually were so hard in their belief that we are a nation built upon the principles of Christianity wouldn’t they have been sure to have a record of such?"

They did: The U.S. Constitution.

You asked:

"In our constitution there is no mention of Christ. If we are such a nation based on Christianity what does that entail?"

Christ is God Ken.

You asked:

" Does the saying of a nation built upon the precepts of Christianity enforce a religious code on all citizens of that nation?"

Nope. The contrary is protected in our constitution.

You said:

"Freedom has been in the writings of all of our founding documents, while god is referred to rarely and Christianity in particular practically never."

I have proven otherwise to you time and time again.

You said in closing:

"... for believing that our nation was built for one single minded purpose, freedom."

Freedom and Judaeo-Christianity.

8:58 PM, July 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“"an Episcopal minister"

I rest my case.”

Sorry Scia, I’m confused, to what are you referring?

“As for your "quotes" from our founding fathers - Your sources have distored facts in comparison to what these founding fathers thought of God, Christ, ect.”

Really, how so? Please be specific so I can check it out.

“They did: The U.S. Constitution.”

Where is it stated in the U.S. Constitution that we are based on Christianity? I’ve read it several times and never found anything of the sort, it doesn’t even mention god once as far as I know.

“Christ is God Ken.”

Okay… I’ll have to trust you know what you’re talking about, nonetheless where is Christ/god mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. Please be specific, because I can’t find it anywhere.

“I have proven otherwise to you time and time again.”

Are you sure it was to me? Because I have seen know mention of which documents hold the idea that we are a nation built upon the principles of Christianity. I did see a something about the Magna Carta and maybe the Mayflower Compact but those don’t really count because those were written before the Declaration of Independence, so we were only an English territory then and their basis for their government is different from ours.

“Freedom and Judaeo-Christianity.”

I’m sorry Scia but I don’t think we can be based on both. Judeo-Christianity is a religion in which its members reduce their freedoms willingly to reach their idea of heaven. In America I hold the right to not worship, worship an existing religion or create a religion in which I can worship my big toe if that gives me comfort. In the writings embraced by Jews and Christians if I did worship my big toe I would be guilty of violating the 1st, 2nd, and possibly the 3rd and 4th commandments. Therefore I am not as free if I am constrained by Judeo-Christian ideals.

Ken Weaver

10:19 PM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger Action said...

Bob April and Ken Weaver quote article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli without providing any context:


It is painfully obvious that both Bob and Ken are deficient in their basic understanding of our nation's history as evidenced by their (mostly Ken) many nonsensical/unsubstantiated assertions in Ken's comments here and in others I have read from him. Ken, before commenting in the future I would advise you to do your homework. Same for you Bob. Quoting a link to a cite that talks about how article 11 debunks the "entire post" is rediculous. Seems to me like you are both ignorant of history and lazy. Next time do some research before you cite a link to a site and say "it debunks your entire post" no it doesn't at all. SCIA is 100% correct in his post and neither you nor Ken have disproven his central assertion. You cited article 11 from the 1797 Treaty without any historical context. There is volumonous proof of how much the Christian religion influenced the Founding of our Nation as SCIA has demonstrated ad nausium. And you cite the "Treaty of Tripoli" in a pathetic attempt to prove that America is not a Christian Nation? This one is a no brainer. I will assume you know this but just in case pull up a chair. You just might learn something today Bob and Ken.

One of the foremsot authorities on the Founding of our Nation and its history is David Barton. Ever heard of him Bob and Ken? He is a world renowned expert in this field of study. One of his books "Original Intent" debunks the fallacious notion that America was not founded as a Christian Nation.

Indeed America was and is.

With specific regard to article 11 you cite, here is what David Barton writes:

"This article may be read in two manners. It may, as its critics do, be concluded after the clause "Christian religion"; or it may be read in its entirety and concluded when the punctuation so indicates. But even if shortened and cut abruptly ("the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"), this is not an untrue statement since it is referring to the federal government.
Recall that while the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation (demonstrated in chapter 2 of Original Intent), they did include a constitutional prohibition against a federal establishment; religion was a matter left solely to the individual States. Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered a Christian nation.

Reading the clause of the treaty in its entirety also fails to weaken this fact. Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.

This latter reading is, in fact, supported by the attitude prevalent among numerous American leaders. The Christianity practiced in America was described by John Jay as "wise and virtuous," 19 by John Quincy Adams as "civilized," 20 and by John Adams as "rational." 21 A clear distinction was drawn between American Christianity and that of Europe in earlier centuries. As Noah Webster explained:"



rest here http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=125

Bottom line is that when you cite as evidence the Treaty of Tripoli that America was not a "Christian Nation" you must have even a rudimentary ammount of historical knowledge and context. Had you actually understood this critical context you would not have alluded to it as a proof source to substantiate your false claim that America is not a Christian Nation. The fact that it is is almost too rediculous to even debate. It is axiomatic that Americas Founders were almost without exception Bible Believing Evangelical Christians and that Judeo-Christian thought was the basis on which our Republic was built. The Bible was the most often quoted source for our Constitution. One half of the Founders had seminary degrees. The least religious of hte founders Jefferson and Franklin wanted our National Seal to include Moses leading the Israelits out of Egypt. Jefferson made the Bible and Watts hymanl the official text books in our publc schools and as governor proclaimed an official day of prayer and fasting. And Jefferson is viewed by many scholars to be one of the least religious of our Founding Fathers. Can you imagine if George W Bush made the Bible and Watts Hymanals official public school text books? So, you can try the 'Treaty of Tripoli" thing somewhre else. But it won't work here. Too easy to debunk.

action

11:03 PM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger Action said...

Ken you say:

"In the writings embraced by Jews and Christians if I did worship my big toe I would be guilty of violating the 1st, 2nd, and possibly the 3rd and 4th commandments. Therefore I am not as free if I am constrained by Judeo-Christian ideals."

It is evident from your question that you don't understand what constitutes a civil government. The US is not a theocracy Ken. We are a civil govt and even though our govt was founded upon Judeo Christian principles our govt and our founding documents most notably the Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantee freedom of religion. Only Israel at one time thoushands of years ago Ken was bound to the Sainitic Law (the Decalogue Ken otherwise knows as teh 10 commandments). And Israel was the only knows Judeo Theocracy in history. Ken we don't live in a theocracy. We posess what is knows as religious liberty which essentially gives us the liberty or freedom to pursue righteousness or what is right. so in our civil govt which is undergirded by Judeo-Christian principles and beliefs- you are free to worship your toe if you choose. You have that freedom. But you are also responsible for rejecting God. In a civil society like ours where you have religious liberty you are not bound to complying with any religious laws.

Ken I really do think you ought to give some consideration to reading some books on our founding. Your questions really illustrate how ignorant you are on a multitude of topics and its not really SCIA's responsiblity to educate you on basic constitutional history and govt. You can educate yourself right here on the internet. One good place to start is by going to David Barton's stie "Wall Builders." He is the foremsot expert in our Nation's Founding and his site is fantastic.

11:15 PM, July 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, action seems kind of angry at me. Oh well, someone angry at me is nothing new.

Anyway I’ll start with what action said about me personally. If I was lazy sir I wouldn’t bother to come here and write my thoughts as Scia does as well. If I was lazy sir I’d sit in front of my TV and let the world go on around me without a care. You say my statements are “nonsensical/unsubstantiated” without writing about what you are referring to. If I mess up I’m not above someone correcting me, but don’t say that what I write is nonsensical without at the least showing what it is you are referring to.

Now you got me and Bob April confused many times during your rant. He posted a link that went through what Scia posted line by line to show what was factual about it and not. He apparently did his homework and found an article which shows many of the assertions in Scia’s article to be false. I haven’t gone through everything in Scia’s Article like the people at snopes apparently did; that is my lack of homework.

I did however post Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. Yet made no statement saying what I had found “debunked” Scia’s article. All of my statements were made to show how I came to the belief that we are not a “Christian nation” built upon the precepts of Christianity. Scia had written that what the quotes said were taken out of context; possible. However I asked Scia to show me how. I’m sure he’ll reply when he is able and then the discussion can grow from there. I did quote Article 11 without historical context because I thought the statement stood for itself. Now that someone has challenged that quotation I can go from there, write what I find and maybe we’ll all learn something, except maybe you action, because from what I’ve seen from your post you already know all there is to know. Or at least you think you do.

I had never heard about David Barton before, and for good reason; he is not “One of the foremsot authorities on the Founding of our Nation and its history” and he is not “… a world renowned expert in this field of study.” He is a controversial figure that believes government should not control religion, but religion should control government. I’m still trying to figure out how that would work. Maybe we could start stoning people again or when someone is excommunicated from the church we can cast him out from our “Christian nation.” And David Barton is not an honest person. He once quoted Thomas Jefferson as saying that the wall of separation is one directional; meaning that religion could run the government but government couldn’t rule religion. When he was challenged on that statement he could not respond and then removed that quote from later publications. That said, I will not respond to what he said about Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. His quotations mean nothing and are worth the same amount.

Ken Weaver

12:01 AM, July 08, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know it is not Scia’s responsibility to educate me but apparently it is his responsibility to save my soul… whatever. However Scia comes here and expresses his opinions and brings them out for people to read and hopefully learn from. So he has taken it upon himself to become a teacher of sorts. In that manner I guess I am his pupil, albeit a poor one. So when Scia posts something that I don’t agree with I take it upon myself to take the role of teacher. We are learning from each other here or at least I’m learning from Scia. You’d have to ask him if he’s learned anything from me. If I have become a nuisance here Scia has but to ask me to leave and I will with no argument if that is his wish. We may rarely agree but I’ve developed a respect for Scia for his devotion and intelligence. You have yet to earn that respect action, and from what I’ve seen you write, I doubt I ever will.

Finally I won’t be going to David Barton’s website, wallbuilders or any website that touts him as the history “answer man” of our time.

Ken Weaver

12:21 AM, July 08, 2007  
Blogger Ed Darrell said...

David Barton is a Reconstructionist, a crank on U.S. history (and most other topics), and his response to the Treaty of Tripoli is inaccurate and inadequate.

The treaty approved -- unanimously -- by the U.S. Senate included the language saying the U.S. is not a Christian nation. Regardless what some other odd version of the treaty might say*, that language is the law of the U.S.

* I've looked in the State Department archives. Barton's claims that someone "debunked" the plain language of the treaty is not supported there, nor by the enrolled and engrossed versions of the treaty. Moreover, it is important to note that language similar to that in Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli appeared in no fewer than seven different treaties between 1786 (prior to the Constitution!) and 1816, including the revision of the Treaty of Tripoli. Had the founders not intended it to be there, why did they repeat it seven times?

5:23 AM, July 08, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

"Now that's a fire!!!!"

What Eddie Murphy stand-up was that quote from??

Wow!!! I spend 3 hours on a Saturday night responding to comments and I come back Sunday morning and find a bunch of verbally beat up people laying in my blogs backyard. I am going to have to quit my job to keep up with you guys. LOL, LOL, LOL!!!

Ken,

Thank-you for your kind words. I VERY much so have learned a bunch from you in our discussions. I find our time on this blog essential to helping each other figure out what we are trying to express. I would NEVER ask you to leave my blog because that in turn shows that my opinion is the only one that counts, and that....is rediculous!!

Anyway, what Action said of the "Treaty of Tripoli" is completely and utterly correct. The bleeding heart leftist indoctrination camps of our country, that I DON'T think you belong to Ken, use this treaty as if it is fact etched in stone. I have done my research on this treaty, and have learned a lot as a result - thank you Ken and Action-.

What this treaty does is it tries to debunk the Christian based laws of our country and fails miserably in trying to do so.

Ken,

You asked:

"Where is it stated in the U.S. Constitution that we are based on Christianity? I’ve read it several times and never found anything of the sort, it doesn’t even mention god once as far as I know."

The Founders of our country were clear the U.S. government would never have the legal right to establish any state-sponsored religion. It's clear from the annals of history that one of the primary motivations of the original settlers was to escape religious persecution which confronted them in England.

The Founders who drafted our earliest documents - the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution - were God-fearing men - fearing God's intention on leaving the side of those who do NOT hold faith in him and who do not worship him - who understood that a system of self-government would be dependent upon the virtue of the people. They recognized virtue was based upon the morality which was taught from the Bible.

I have already agreed with you Ken that any state-sponsored religion is wrong and I would fight to the death to prohibit such an item to every get ammended to our federal Constitution.

On the other hand our Founding Fathers were Christians who used their belief and faith in God/Christ in order to write the U.S. Constitution.

The New Hampshire Constitution for example, written in 1776, reads:

"The morality and piety, rightly grounded on evangelical principles, wold give the best and greatest security to government...therefore the legislature is empowered to adopt measures for the support and maintenance of public Christian teachers of piety, religion and morality".

With all the quotes from our Founding Fathers representing their devout faith in the Word of the Bible strongly justifies the stance that their intentions when writing the U.S. Constitution were to base laws/regulations on Scripture.

I have stateded in numerous comments to my readers that the Bible was the primary source behind the writing of the U.S. Constitution.

34% of all citations came from the Bible, which represented the most often quoted source.

94% of all the quotes used by the Founding Fathers came from the Bible.

To answer your question DIRECTLY:

Isaiah 33:22 reads, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver and the Lord is our king..." This passage was the basis for the three major branches of our government: Judicial, Legislative and Executive.

The Founders knew since man is corrupt by nature that the government must be set up with these three divisions of "checks and balances" to avoid the tyranny which could result from consolidating power in a single authority. This action took place with the Goodridge vs. the Board of Health that "legalized" same-sex "marriage".

"God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both," wrote John Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration.

Witherspoon's comments are a mirror of how the Founding Fathers planned for religion to be an integral part of our society as well as the basis for our government and laws.

I do understand your comments regarding where you think Christianity is not engulfed in our Constitution, but you must understand the vast amount of documents that indicate that Christianity is a part of our government and always will be.

With this Ken, I have enjoyed your comments on this matter, but feel that WE have BOTH beat a dead horse to smither-eens and we are just scraping bone bottom by continuing to AGREE to DISAGREE.

Great job. I will post ANOTHER constroversial post VERY soon.

Scia

2:36 PM, July 08, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry Scia but I couldn’t resist.

“Anyway, what Action said of the "Treaty of Tripoli" is completely and utterly correct.”

If what action said about the Treaty is correct then your whole idea that the founders based our federal government on Christianity is wrong. From reading David Barton’s part in that post he says that the federal government is not based on Christianity but the states were. I’m sorry but you can’t have it both ways. If David Barton is correct our Federal Government is based on something other than Christianity; may I say freedom? Which means that we are both correct; how does that work?

“On the other hand our Founding Fathers were Christians who used their belief and faith in God/Christ in order to write the U.S. Constitution.”

I would say most of the Founding Fathers were Christians. And I have no doubt that their faith played a role in what they wanted their government to be. With that said; what does it mean then to have a nation based on the teachings of Christ? What then are our responsibilities?

“Great job. I will post ANOTHER constroversial post VERY soon.”

I can’t wait!!

Ken Weaver

6:22 PM, July 08, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The words "Jesus" "Christ" "Bible" "God" and even "Creator" appear nowhere in the Constitution ("Endowed by their Creator" is in the Declaration of Independence.) Just how stupid would someone have to be to create a Christian nation then forget to mention Christ in the Constitution?

10:26 PM, July 08, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken and Anonymous,

Stop...please stop. Your lack of education on this matter is mindfuc----!

I love the dialog, but please.

Scia

8:55 PM, July 09, 2007  

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