Monday, July 09, 2007

Dangerous Behaviors

As Jim Brown of OneNewsNow.com explains, a group that provides support for families and public awareness regarding the decision to leave homosexuality is accusing a Maryland school board of displaying bigotry and intolerance toward people who believe homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle. Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays, or PFOX, is contemplating whether to file another lawsuit in a matter concerning that district's pro-homosexuality sex education program.

Read full story by clicking HERE.
I mean, who would downplay the medical facts of 270 board certified physicians on the dangers of a behavior? Oh, that's right, these MDs are bigots and therefore their medical background is discriminatory????

45 Comments:

Blogger SCIA said...

John,

Your OPINIONS are just that, opinions that you try so hard to pass off as fact. You have got to stop spreading lies as if they are pure fact.

You said:

"Those who say they have been "indoctrinated" into, or "cured" of homosexuality are simply lying."

Interesting. So, you are saying that the hundreds of people who have converted to heterosexuality from homosexuality are a bunch of liers? Are you a grand-master of these people's lives, because you speak like you are their spokesman and know everything that has gone on in their lives.

You said:

" Homosexuality is not a behavior or a choice."

Do you have the research to back that up with John, I don't.

and then you contradict yourself and say:

"People simply are or are not homosexual."

Funny, if people simply "are" or "are not", then they make a CHOICE in order to determine if they "are" or "are not".

You said:

"Through love all wounds are healed, all disputes solved, as love conquers all."

Does love in turn replace the forgiveness God grants to those who sin? What god are you talking about John?

You said:

"(Is there) not one gay person worthy of having his/her sexuality put aside so they can be seen for the person they are?"

Absolutely, but that does not mean we can not help him/her out of their sin. We follow up with loving that person and helping them present their sin before Christ in order to be forgiven.

You said in confusion:

"The God I believe in is supported by 23 faiths, and He loves gay people just the way they are."

The God I believe in also loves those who are homosexual, but he does NOT love the sinful lifestyle they are leading.

Can you answer me a question in which you have not answered yet:

How do you translate 1 Corinthians 6:9?

You seem to be quite the scholer when it comes to translating the Constitution.

My comments of:

"I could not agree more. If the Bible was taught as a way to live life then it would be in breach of our constitutional right to freedom of religion."

Plain, simple and factual.

This does not contradict my next statement of:

"I also agree that there should be a separation of religion and government, but that does not mean that we can do away with the fact that our government is based on Judaeo-Christian beliefs."

You follow up with:

"Our government is based on equality..."

Prove this silly statement to me. Bring your "A" game on this one John, because your attempts at translating the Constitution is intellectually lazy at this point.

You said:

"It does not better society to continue treating the GLBT community like criminals."

Who is and how?

You again contradict your words with your own guilty conscious:

"Until this injustice is finally addressed, we will have many instances of abuse aimed at people who have done nothing wrong, and the blood will be on the hands of those who called for it through their hate and fear"

"...and the blood will be on the hands of those..."

Are you kidding me?

You said in closing:

"We are all family under God,..."

Yes, we are but that does not mean that you can ask for God's forgiveness and then think you are granted a license to continue your sinful lifestyle.

3:25 PM, July 11, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

It is a real shame that people really think that God will aloow them to do anything they want without facing consequences. God IS a God of love and forgiveness but you have to go to Him and ask for that forgiveness, which means you have to recognize your sin so you can ask to be forgiven.

Jesus didn't come here for everyone. He came here for those that God gave to Him. Those that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Homosexuality behaviors of the mind and body are sins just as much as are the sins of fornication and adultry and the rest of those sexual sins.

I find that the homosexual community is quite vocal and filled with a mean spiritedness towards those that do not agree with their unneeded public displays and attempts to force homosexuality indoctrination in our schools. They want homosexual sexual behavior to be considered normal and a valid lifestyle and they want it taught to very young and typically sexually confused kids.

Homosexuality is not normal. One chooses to participate. Everything we do is a choice. We don't have to engage in any behavior but we choose to.

Good job Scia. your rebuttal is right on

8:14 PM, July 12, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is the real face of the Christian right:

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/07/hindu_prayers_and_christian_he_1.php#more

6:51 AM, July 13, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Sorry anonymous when I click the link I get "PAGE NOT FOUND"

9:06 PM, July 14, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christians disrupting Hindu Prayer

5:35 AM, July 15, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Anonymous,

You said:

"Here is the real face of the Christian right."

Wow...I did not know you were the official spokesperson of Christianity for the rest of the country. Thanks for summing up what EVERYONE in this country thinks.

Ed Brayton sums up the situation on the Senate floor ever so clearly and I don't see anything more:

"when one person is invited to be there and those in the gallery try to shout them down, they're seen as disruptive. It has nothing to do with the content of the prayers. If they had stood up and started yelling baseball scores from last night's Sportscenter, they would still have been arrested."

The people were being disruptive...they were wrong for doing so. What does this have to do with the fact that our countries government is based on Judaeo-Christian values?

So what if a false religion gets their 15 minutes of fame. Does that change the fact that every law that is applied through the U.S. Constitution is Judaeo-Christian based?

Nice try Anonymous, but I think we can all see through your "Christian Right" bashing agenda that does not have two legs to stand on.

8:03 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"So what if a false religion gets their 15 minutes of fame."

When you word yourself like this, it proves you are a bigot.

7:50 AM, July 18, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Anonymous,

You said:

"When you word yourself like this, it proves you are a bigot."

Prove to me that Hinduism is more historically accurate and alive than Christianity.

If I am a bigot for knowing that Christianity is the way and the life of our true God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then so be it.

4:37 PM, July 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“If I am a bigot for knowing that Christianity is the way and the life of our true God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then so be it.”

If you actually KNOW, doesn’t that remove any and all faith from the equation? If you actually KNOW, it shouldn’t be too difficult to prove that god exists and Christianity is correct. If you can’t prove either you cannot possibly know. But you can believe, and if it is actually a belief, than you, are a bigot to call any other religious system “false.” Are you really comfortable with that label Scia?

Ken Weaver

6:32 AM, July 20, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Former "Ex-Gays" speak out

8:25 AM, July 20, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Anonymous,

You have been deceived by false prophets of this world.

God bless,
Scia

2:52 PM, July 22, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

Let's define bigotry:

bigot (n.) One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I am not "intolerant" of those who differ. The Holy Scripture of Christ is man's most historically authentic piece of literature in the world. This has been proven time and time again.

Read your Lee Strobel book a little slower and my comments will harber answers to your questions.

2:57 PM, July 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“bigot (n.) One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.”

“I am not "intolerant" of those who differ.”

I think the word bigot has come to mean more than just “intolerance.” I always considered my Uncle a bigot due to what he would say about blacks or Hispanics or Asians. He however was tolerant of their existence and tolerant of their presence. But he most certainly didn’t feel they were on equal footing as a white. Was he a bigot? I always thought so. Is there a word that is more accurately descriptive?

“The Holy Scripture of Christ is man's most historically authentic piece of literature in the world.”

Doesn’t say much for our literature does it?

“Read your Lee Strobel book a little slower and my comments will harber answers to your questions.”

I read it once, isn’t that enough? Might I suggest a book for you and OMD? God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, by Christopher Hitchens.

Ken Weaver

7:45 PM, July 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You will know who comes in My name by the love they bring."

8:50 PM, July 25, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

You said:

"I think the word bigot has come to mean more than just "intolerance."

Great. Up until you have your definition patented, the word and its meaning remains.

As for your apples and organges comparison of my knowing that other religions are false in comparison to Christianity and how that relates to racism is once again...intellectually inept.

Until you can prove to me that Christianity is false, don't bring up the subject anymore. You sound silly with recommending books that have no back bone or facts to back your false claims. I mean...none.

11:44 AM, July 26, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Great. Up until you have your definition patented, the word and its meaning remains.

As for your apples and organges comparison of my knowing that other religions are false in comparison to Christianity and how that relates to racism is once again...intellectually inept.”

Well Scia, is my Uncle a bigot? That is the most important piece of information I need to fulfill the dialogue.

“Until you can prove to me that Christianity is false, don't bring up the subject anymore.”

You don’t tell someone to prove a negative. That is intellectually inept. If you know that Christianity is the one true religion and it is not based on a gut feeling than proof shouldn’t be beyond your ability. If it is actually based on faith or a gut feeling than it is completely impossible to know. And if it is based on faith than your being if not a bigot at least a complete jerk and you’re misrepresenting yourself.

“You sound silly with recommending books that have no back bone or facts to back your false claims.”

Oh, so you’ve already read it. Sorry you might try The Holy Vote by Ray Suarez. Or even Ken’s Guide to the Bible by Ken Smith.

Ken Weaver

8:23 PM, July 26, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ya Ken, everybody knows the Earth is flat, the center of the Universe, and 6,000 years old! Science is just homosexual Nazi propaganda.

3:13 PM, July 27, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

As for what "Anonymous" just said about the earth being flat, ect, ect....WHAT????!!!!

Anyway,

Ken, you said:

"If you know that Christianity is the one true religion and it is not based on a gut feeling than proof shouldn’t be beyond your ability."

Biblical truth is fixed and constant, not subject to change or adaptation. Worldly opinion, on the other hand, is based on a "gut feeling" and is in a constant flux. The various fads and philosophies that dominate the world change radically and regularly from generation to generation. The only thing that remains constant is the world's hatred of Christ and His gospel.

Tomorrow's generation will renounce all of today's fads and philosophies. But one thing will remain unchanged: Until the Lord Himself returns and establishes His kingdom on earth, whatever ideology gains popularity in the world will be as hostile to biblical truth as all its predecessors have been.

8:42 PM, July 27, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Biblical truth is fixed and constant…”

But is biblical truth always factual? If someone believes in the bible it is based on faith; not facts. Science is based on facts and research. The only ones that generally come out against science are those who believe in their ancient texts too literally.

“…not subject to change or adaptation.”

But it is up for interpretation. That’s why there are so many different religions.

“Worldly opinion, on the other hand, is based on a "gut feeling" and is in a constant flux.”

Just as it should be. If we subscribe to a belief and then new information is brought to us, we can change our minds on different issues. If someone believes in the bible they are forcing themselves to follow it, even after new information comes to light.

“The only thing that remains constant is the world's hatred of Christ and His gospel.”

Hatred? In some areas yes but not nearly even most.

“Tomorrow's generation will renounce all of today's fads and philosophies.”

Fads, yes, but all fads seem to have a resurgence of some sort. I’ve seen some people wearing bell-bottoms and beads with the hair styles of the 70’s. Philosophies, no. Philosophies live on forever if they are written. Think of Plato or Socrates or other ancient philosophers that we still marvel at how wise they were.

“But one thing will remain unchanged: Until the Lord Himself returns and establishes His kingdom on earth, whatever ideology gains popularity in the world will be as hostile to biblical truth as all its predecessors have been.”

When the cat’s away…

Ken Weaver

9:35 AM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The only reason why there is such hostility to organized religion is because of the teachings that are embraced which have a tendency to oppress. Not just sexuality, but freedom of thought, science, medicine etc etc. With that oppression, hostility to biblical truth should be expected.

Ken Weaver

9:39 AM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“As for what "Anonymous" just said about the earth being flat, ect, ect....WHAT????!!!!”

I don’t know either, sorry.

Ken Weaver

9:42 AM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Biblical truth is fixed and constant, not subject to change or adaptation.”

The perception of biblical truth is not constant either. It was taught by religious scholars that the earth was flat. It was taught that the sun revolved around the earth. It was taught that the universe revolved around earth. If men spoke differently there were put on trial for heresy or blasphemy. Some were burned, some were killed for their beliefs and some were just laughed at because their religious teachers told them differently. Science proved beyond doubt that none of those religious beliefs were true even though many held them up as biblical truth. We now know who was correct in science vs. religion.

Pope John Paul II attempted to talk Stephen Hawkings out of looking for the origin of man and his existence. Out of looking for the origin of the universe. Is religion once again afraid they will be on the losing side again? What new scientific discovery will prove religion false in its teachings today? Will your perception of biblical truth be shaken with the next scientific breakthrough? Or will you change your belief system so both can exist together? Or maybe you’ll just call that discovery a lie; a heresy; a blasphemy and cast the scientist out from among you.

I find it ironic how the religious faithful will sit there and attack science on its theory of evolution, but applaud science when it uses that theory in finding a cure for some disease.

Ken Weaver

1:26 PM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The only thing that remains constant is the world's hatred of Christ and His gospel."

Do you really believe this? I don't think the world hates Christ and/or the gospels. I think it is what some Christians do in the name of Christ and the gospels that puts people off.

I also do not understand how you can use the term "bibilical truth". The bible is a book of faith, not a book of fact. It is very easy to say something is "true", but what is "true" for one person, is not necessarily "true" to another. When you make bold statements like "So what if a false religion gets their 15 minutes of fame." and “If I am a bigot for knowing that Christianity is the way and the life of our true God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then so be it.” you are not just expressing your faith (facts in your opinion), you are deeply insulting others.

At the start of this thread you state "Your OPINIONS are just that, opinions that you try so hard to pass off as fact. You have got to stop spreading lies as if they are pure fact." Maybe you should take your own advise. Stop assuming what is "true" for you is indeed a "fact".

My intention is not to insult, or even question, your faith. I've read your blog off and on now for better of a year, and you come across, at least to me, very stern, calious and overbearing, unable to even consider another point of view but your own. When you see a post that contradicts anything you believe, the poster, in many cases, is labeled ignorant and uneducated, or simply maybe a liar.

I do have a question, do you consider yourself open minded at all? Please think carefully before you answer.

Thank you for your time

Rufus

6:32 AM, July 31, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Rufus,

You make several good points.

Yes, Christianity has been smudged by some people professing to be Christian as well as people that are Christian.

However, the world does hate the Christ, Jesus. If they are not for Him they are against Him. It's as simple as that.

So what do you say about Jesus' statements? Is He lying about himself or is He deluded. He says that He is the way, the truth & the life. He says that no one enters the Kingdom of God or has access to the Father unless they go through Him [Jesus]. He says He is the gateway and that all that try to enter through anything but the gate is a liar and and a thief.

Yes the bible is, also, about faith BUT it is also about the love and wrath of God and HIS FAITHFULNESS TO US not about our faithfulness to Him. The bible is the written Word of God and is true. Being true it is, then, fact.

Opinions are opinions and most people state their opinions as fact or at a minimum come across that way. Usually an opinion revolves around a person's beliefs and experiences, which then shape their opinion. I noticed that you turned on Scia

You Wrote:
At the start of this thread you state "Your OPINIONS are just that, opinions that you try so hard to pass off as fact. You have got to stop spreading lies as if they are pure fact." Maybe you should take your own advise. Stop assuming what is "true" for you is indeed a "fact".

So you started off saying Scia's opinions are Scia's opinions but then said his opinions are lies. AND on top of that you indicate that apparently there is more than 1 truth indicating there is no absolute truth, which means every man's way is right in his own eye. SO, that must mean that murder, lieing, stealing, adultry, cursing God etc is ok, right?

Granted, we have a lot to learn and we must be respectful & display tolerance towards others beliefs, even if they are not correct. Tolerance does not mean we have to accept that belief as a correct one, though. It means you have a right to your opinion even if it is in error.

Recently a person we know went to a church somewhere around D.C. and they noticed that the name of Jesus was not mentioned once. Being curious, they asked a deacon why that was.

The reply - We want everyone to feel welcome here. We don't want anyone to feel judged.

What??? So mentioning the name of Jesus makes people feel unwelcome and judged?

There's power in the name of Jesus!! It is His name that is despised, NOT buddha or allah or any of the other names of gods people bow before. I submit that any of those other names could have been used in that church BUT it is only the name of JESUS that would bring condemnation to an unbeliever.

There IS power in the name of JESUS! That my friend, is a FACT.

8:57 AM, August 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“So what do you say about Jesus' statements? Is He lying about himself or is He deluded. He says that He is the way, the truth & the life. He says that no one enters the Kingdom of God or has access to the Father unless they go through Him [Jesus]. He says He is the gateway and that all that try to enter through anything but the gate is a liar and and a thief.”

I don’t know if he’s lying, but he is definitely arrogant.

“The bible is the written Word of God and is true. Being true it is, then, fact.”

Then how come there is so much scientific evidence to the contrary? If the bible was as factual as you state it would be easier to prove its statements as history rather than mythological.

“SO, that must mean that murder, lieing, stealing, adultry, cursing God etc is ok, right?”

Cursing god isn’t against the law is it?

“There's power in the name of Jesus!! It is His name that is despised, NOT buddha or allah or any of the other names of gods people bow before.”

What was the last miracle done in Jesus’ name?

“There IS power in the name of JESUS! That my friend, is a FACT.”

Is there any evidence to back that up?

Ken Weaver

7:14 PM, August 09, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OMD

"However, the world does hate the Christ, Jesus. If they are not for Him they are against Him." Are you stating that you believe because a person does not believe in and embrace Jesus, they must hate him? I don't follow that logic. Certainly there are people, (and countries for that matter) who seem to dispise Christians, but saying the world hates Christ is a bit of stretch for me.

I'd rather not debate you on the bible, for we obviously look at it very differently. I see as a book of faith written by men, not the "written word of God". Jesus, from what I understand, did not sit down and write the gospels. They were written by others, who did not know Jesus personally, years after Jesus died. In a time when stories were handed down orally, I find it hard to believe the writers of the bible, old and new testament, got all the facts straight. This is not to say the bible isn't a "good book". I think it is, but I also think the stories in the bible need to taken with a grain of salt. This is simply my opinion of the subject, so we are clear. Do not take this to mean I am in contempt of your beliefs.

You accuse me of turning on Scia by quoting him about passing opinion off as facts. Firstly, I never said SCIA's opinions are lies. Please explain why you accuse me of this. I was just using his own quote to make a point, and to hopefully suggest he be more open minded to what other people have to say.

"AND on top of that you indicate that apparently there is more than 1 truth indicating there is no absolute truth, which means every man's way is right in his own eye. SO, that must mean that murder, lieing, stealing, adultry, cursing God etc is ok, right?"

Absolute truth is hard to come by these days, as is seems nothing is black and white. What one person sees as the truth of a given situation can be very different to another. Perspective. This does not mean the crimes such as theft and murder are ok. We have law to cover such discrepancies of perspective, and police and courts to sort it all out. Their job is to find what is most true, and act accordingly. Adultery, cursing God, and even lying (for the most part) are not crimes, and are moral judgments. I agree with you, these things are not ok, but the line of perspective is harder to draw in these cases. For example, my brother in law hates when people take the lords name in vain, even using the phrase "damn it" makes him cringe. My mother, on the other hand, had no problem using the name of Jesus as a curse when she was angry. She explained to my brother in law she is not actually cursing God, and that He knows the difference. I can give you further examples if you are not understanding my point.

"Granted, we have a lot to learn and we must be respectful & display tolerance towards others beliefs, even if they are not correct. Tolerance does not mean we have to accept that belief as a correct one, though. It means you have a right to your opinion even if it is in error." In essence, this was the point I was trying to get across.

Your story of the church in DC that does not use the name of Jesus does sound a little crazy to me as well. If it is a Christian church, how can they not use the name Jesus?!?!

Finally, I do believe there is power in the name "Jesus", although, I suspect for different reasons than you. The name "Jesus" holds power for those that use it, sometimes for great good, sometimes to oppress and condemn. Words can hold great power, but only so much as one gives it power. The name (word) Jesus holds power because of what it stands for, what is believed His name stands for, what His name conjours up in a person's mind.

Thanks for your Time,

Rufus

10:49 AM, August 10, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SCIA,

I am still very interested in your take on what I had to say, and whether you consider yourself open minded.

Thanks,
Rufus

10:50 AM, August 10, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

Sorry for being so unsocial on my own blog. It has been incredibly busy at work.

O.K., I am back in action.

You said:

"The perception of biblical truth is not constant either."

Ken, you need to understand that Biblical truth is based on faith, which is something that you can not see, touch, or scientifically prove.

You need to let go of all of your sin, like I need to do on a daily basis, and give it to Him. If you do this you will see the change that even I was scared of and skeptical of at first. Give up your sin and you will see what I am talking about...I challenge you to this task. What do you got to lose expect a life saturated with sin. Just try it...ask for His hand.

7:32 PM, August 13, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Rufus,

You said,

"I see as a book (the Bible) of faith written by men, not the "written word of God".

Well, then you really don't know much about scripture. The Bible is the "written word of God" because this FACT has been replicated across the globe in EVERY language known to man. That is a tad-bit difficult to refute...the balls in your court on this one.


You said:

"In a time when stories were handed down orally, I find it hard to believe the writers of the bible, old and new testament, got all the facts straight."

No, the letters of the Bible were not handed down orally. Where did you get this piece of info? The letters have been found as in their original state written on paprys and replicated in many, many, different languages in numerous parts of the WORLD. This is a fact Rufus not some made-up myth. Look it up. I recommend you start with reading Lee Strobels "The Case for Christ".

You said:

"This does not mean the crimes such as theft and murder are ok. We have law to cover such discrepancies of perspective, and police and courts to sort it all out."

Well, our murder laws are based specifically on the 10 Commandments-"Thou Shalt not Murder". Do you believe that you can go ahead and murder people because you have "no right to demand a morality based on (Judeo-Christianity)"?

For the record, adultry is a crime.

You said:

"She explained to my brother in law she is not actually cursing God, and that He knows the difference."

Exodus 22:28 -

"Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of your people"

Leviticus 24:16
Mark 3:29
Luke 12:10
Ect, ect.

He does NOT know the difference.

You said in closing:

"Finally, I do believe there is power in the name "Jesus", although, I suspect for different reasons than you."

What are these reasons Rufus?

Oh, to answer your question about being open-minded:

Yes, I am open-minded, but not to lies. Lies need to be refuted with the truth.

8:19 PM, August 13, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

You said about Jesus:

"I don’t know if he’s lying, but he is definitely arrogant."

How is He arrogant?

You asked in regards to the Bible being the written word of God:

"Then how come there is so much scientific evidence to the contrary?"

Come on Ken, you can not make such a blanket statement without facts...so where are your facts to prove your statement?

You asked:

"Cursing god isn’t against the law is it?"

It is against His law (refer to my reply to Rufus for more details.)

You asked in closing:

"What was the last miracle done in Jesus’ name?"

You!

God Bless,
Scia

8:25 PM, August 13, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Scia, nice to hear from you again!

“Ken, you need to understand that Biblical truth is based on faith, which is something that you can not see, touch, or scientifically prove.”

Biblical truth is based on an ancient text. Faith is what is required to believe it. The perception of the ancient text and how a person justifies their faith is the basis for their religious beliefs. In the bible the Israelites are attacking a city (one of many) and god commands them to kill all the inhabitants except for virgin females. To make this job easier he has the sun remain in the sky longer than what would be normal. Today we know that the earth revolves around the sun not the other way around so the biblical truth is completely incorrect and impossible. However a person’s faith gets people to reject reason and accept the impossible. It’s a lot like becoming less intelligent.

“Give up your sin and you will see what I am talking about...I challenge you to this task. What do you got to lose expect a life saturated with sin. Just try it...ask for His hand.”

So how do I do it?

“How is He arrogant?”

He says you can’t go to heaven without him. Like he must be involved with everything.

“Come on Ken, you can not make such a blanket statement without facts...so where are your facts to prove your statement?”

The bible states that god created man, if he did, he did it through evolution. The bible states that a huge flood killed every living being on the planet except the ones that were in Noah’s ark, No evidence exists that backs that up. The bible says that god made the sun stand still in the sky, see above.

“It is against His law (refer to my reply to Rufus for more details.)”

Alright!! We can break a law of god but not be punished for it on Earth.

I’m the last miracle done in Jesus’ name? What’s so special about me?

Ken Weaver

9:36 PM, August 13, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SCIA,

I am not a biblical scholar, but I know enough about the bible to form my own opinion of it. Much of the bible is not written in the form of letters. I don't believe any of the old testiment is written this way. Are the gospels letters? I don't believe so. Since you brought it up, doesn't the FACT (you do love to use that word) that the parts of the bible are written as letters by men mean this portion is not the written word of God? It is not the opinion of men sending off their opinion on the subject of Jesus and God? And just because a book is widely published in many languages, does not make it divinely written and completely true. All it means is a lot of people carry the BELIEFS associated with the bible. The Harry Potter books have been translated into 65 different languages (source: Wikipedia). Does this make is less of a work of fiction?

Murder, as a crime, is not inherently a judeo/christian law. Sure, it's on the 10 commandments, but most societies have had laws against murder, regardless of their religion. Even the ancient greeks, romans and egyptians had some forms of law against murder. And, since we're on the subject, the commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Kill", but somehow there are so many reasons in bible God seems to want the "rightous" to kill for. Is the stoning to death of prostitutes justifiable homicide? Is there a loophole in the commandment allowing for the death of homosexuals because they are "an abomination"?

I stand corrected, adultery can be considered a crime. Shame on me for not checking first. It is a crime which is not prosecuted very much, it seems. Correct me if I am wrong.

For the record, I think my mother is wrong for cursing, and she is just using her reasoning as an excuse. Whether He knows the difference is beside the point, it's just plain rude (in not sinful).

I gave you my reasons for why the name (word) Jesus hold power, what are your reasons. I have my ideas of what you believe, but it would be nice to hear them first hand.

Lastly, and with all respect, I do not think you are open minded. The very FACT you call others liars for holding different beliefs makes this untrue. I do think you were correct to call John out at the beginning of this thread for calling those who claim to be "cured of homosexuality" simply lying. It flies in the face of what he believes, so it must be a lie (to him). I believe you have the same problem. Presented with something that is contradictory to your faith, to what you believe, it must be a lie.

You seem to know a lot about what makes one gay, and how the gay people live. You seem to know it is a choice. Do you know many gay persons? Do you know how they themselves live their lives? I leave you again with your own advice. "Are you a grand-master of these people's lives, because you speak like you are their spokesman and know everything that has gone on in their lives."

Thank You for your time,

Rufus

11:15 AM, August 14, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

Rufus, it's Thou shalt not murder, not kill...

Killing is different...otherwise, no cop or soldier could be saved.

Go ahead, have your fun with it...I'll be back to read this in a few days, maybe, or you can jump into the conversation on another post.

9:20 PM, August 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tyler,

I have to admit, I was skeptical of "thou shalt not murder", but I stand corrected. I looked it up. I have never heard it put that way before, and I went to Catholic school from 2nd grade thru college! This does explain the mentality of the writers of the bible.

How do you reconcile God's definition of murder and the modern interpretation? Obviously we can't just go around stoning prostitutes and gays nowadays. But doesn't God tell us we should?

Rufus

9:29 AM, August 20, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

I don't think I can give you a satisfactory explanation of the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant without you questioning God's unchanging nature, as professed by believers like myself.

Without Jesus as part of the New Covenant, it makes very little sense, but with Jesus paying the price for sins, it's no longer required that those who have sinned in this way be stoned to death.

That doesn't mean that it isn't sin, but my sin is sin just the same as any other sin is sin.

When I make mistakes...when I don't do what God wants me to do, when I do what God doesn't want me to do, the only thing that can make my sin clean is the fact that Jesus paid the price for me - for you - and there is no other way under heaven for sins to be taken away.

Does my explanation make sense to you, Rufus?

9:44 AM, August 22, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

You said:

"Biblical truth is based on an ancient text. Faith is what is required to believe it."

You are absolutely....Correct!
That is why every single language and culture on this earth has replicated your thoughts and facts from day one without anyone being able to refute them.

I stated:

"“Give up your sin and you will see what I am talking about...I challenge you to this task. What do you got to lose expect a life saturated with sin. Just try it...ask for His hand.”

You replied:

"So how do I do it?"

Ask Him to forgive you and then follow him in his footsteps. It is that simple. Let it all go and give it to Him.

Let me know how you are doing with this Ken.

You said:

"He says you can’t go to heaven without him. Like he must be involved with everything."

He is.

You said:

"The bible states that god created man, if he did, he did it through evolution."

Oh???? Enlighten me Mr. Weaver.

You said:

"The bible states that a huge flood killed every living being on the planet except the ones that were in Noah’s ark, No evidence exists that backs that up."

Funny, because archiologists have found remnants of the arch in Europe. Look it up.

You asked in closing:

"I’m the last miracle done in Jesus’ name? What’s so special about me?"

Your a child of God, of course your special.

In Him,

Scia

7:22 PM, August 22, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Rufus,

You said,

"It is not (the Bible) the opinion of men sending off their opinion on the subject of Jesus and God?"

No, it is the word of God spoken to these men by God.

You said:

"The Harry Potter books have been translated into 65 different languages (source: Wikipedia). Does this make is less of a work of fiction?"

First of all your source, Wiklipedia, has been excoriated by many, many, educational scholers as the worst source to cite from because anyone can change the "FACTS" that are presented on this website and pass them off as truth. Come on Rufus.

Second of all, just because a fictional book is printed in 65 different languages has no comparison to the thousands and thousands of languages that the Bible has been written in but by different people, disciples, who never met each other but yet have the same word of God to share with the rest of us. How is that not proving the authenticity of the Word?

You said:

"Murder, as a crime, is not inherently a judeo/christian law. Sure, it's on the 10 commandments, but most societies have had laws against murder, regardless of their religion. Even the ancient greeks, romans and egyptians had some forms of law against murder."

All based on the Judaeo/Christian principles even to the Greeks, ect. Amazing isn't it?

You ask:

"I gave you my reasons for why the name (word) Jesus hold power, what are your reasons."

The name Jesus holds power because His power is detailed in the book He wrote. Imagine a God, that you can not see, hear or touch who is so powerful but yet so forgiving to those who ask for his forgiveness.

What other God disciplines his children, you and me, with love and forgiveness?

You said:

"You seem to know a lot about what makes one gay, and how the gay people live. You seem to know it is a choice."

I never, ever said that I seem to know it is a choice. No peer-reviewed medical journal on this fine earth can prove it is or it isn't. You need to be carefull with how you put words into other people's mouths.

You asked:

"Do you know many gay persons?"

Yes I do, and they tell me they are unhappy with the lifestyle they lead.

7:47 PM, August 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"No, it is the word of God spoken to these men by God." This is not a fact, but your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Just try saying it is an opinion, a faith. You have no absolute proof this is how the bible was written.

Thousands and thousands of languages?!?!!? How many languages are there? Where are your stats for this? Where is the verifiable proof? Wikipedia, as many sources (if not all) should be taken with a grain of salt, but I believe, in the Harry Potter example, it will suffice. Since you disregard the example anyway, I won't waste my time finding another. Let me know if you really want to verify this.

"the Bible has been written in but by different people, disciples, who never met each other but yet have the same word of God to share with the rest of us. How is that not proving the authenticity of the Word?" I have great difficulties with your logic. Obviously stories reached different and varied people, some just happened to write them down. It doesn't necessarily prove anything. Can you prove it is the word of God they share, and not just a bunch of well traveled stories?

Murder was/is a crime in societies that have nothing to do with the Judeo/Christian religions. Are you saying ancient Egypt was influenced by the jewish people to come up with their laws and tradtions? Are you saying the Eastern religions somehow miraculously were influenced by people, and a God, they'd never met? Are you really trying to say ancient Rome, and ancient Greece (who believed in many gods for generations before the jews were any sort of influence) laws were set up in response to the God of Moses?? Come on now, I give you more credit than that.

"I never, ever said that I seem to know it is a choice. No peer-reviewed medical journal on this fine earth can prove it is or it isn't. You need to be carefull with how you put words into other people's mouths." I did not put words into your mouth. I was merely asking you to clarify your stance. Everything you have written on the subject points to my conclusion. That is my opinion based on your words and attitude here. I do believe it would take God himself appearing before you to tell you it is not a choice for you to believe it. No, there is not a difinitive answer to it being biological or not. There is enough, however, to satisfy me that it is indeed not a choice. I speak from the experiences I have had with gay persons, taling and interacting with them, as well as what I have read on the subject.

I too know many gay people, none of which are unhappy with being gay. They live many lifestyles, not the mythological "homosexual lifestyle". It is not too easy to suggest there is one lifestyle gays enjoy. Is there a strait lifestyle?

Rufus

2:24 PM, August 27, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Rufus,

You really ought not to claim you know what you are talking about when it comes to the Bible. This trend is apparent in your many previous posts and in your above post in which I am going to excoriate with scripture:

I said:

"No, it is (the Bible) the word of God spoken to these men (St. John, Peter, James, ect) by God."

You incorrectly responded with:

"You have no absolute proof this is how the bible was written."

You need to carefully read the following:

2 Peter 1:20-21 -

20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

and Revelation 22:18 -

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

You asked:

"Can you prove it is the word of God they share, and not just a bunch of well traveled stories?"

How is it then, Rufus, that these many "stories" were found in various parts of the world on Paprys leaves and dated with the same carbon time stamp? Unless these "stories" were able to travel via aircraft or some other fast form of transportation, how would they "travel" and replicate themselves so quickly?

You said:

"Murder was/is a crime in societies that have nothing to do with the Judeo/Christian religions."

Fundamental morals that are still acknowledged even by those that had nothing to do with Judaeo/Christian values. Interesting isn't it?

You asked in closing:

"It is not too easy to suggest there is one lifestyle gays enjoy?"

How a homosexual or a heterosexual individual leads their overall life is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is the dangerous sexual lifestyle that the homosexual leads in comparison to a heterosexual individual.

7:15 PM, August 27, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, I never made any claim to knowing the bible. I had stated previously I knew enough of the bible to base my opinion of it. I have no intention of making a study of it again, or to debate it's validity with you. I have no doubt your knowledge of it's contents are superior to mine, and you could debate me under the table. You believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe. My intent was only to point out your claims of fact and truth are really just faith and opinion. That, my friend, it the truth as I see it.

I find it kinda funny you use quotes from the bible to prove it is the word of God. In other words, the bible is true because the bible says it is true. The bible is the written word of God, because the bible says it is the written word of God. Circular logic at best, and really proves nothing to someone who doesn't believe, and shouldn't to those who do believe.

I say again, you have no absolute proof the bible is the written word of God, vs the written word of men of faith. It is your faith which tells you it is what you believe.

Just because stories were written down on papyrus at similar time intervals in various lands does not make them any less stories. Stories and history were handed down, for the most part, by word of mouth in ancient times. Even in the days of Jesus, reading and writing were not common. It is not a stretch to think people of the same time period could have written down the same story, even though living distances apart. The books and scriptures of the bible, whether one believes them or not, are compelling reading.

"Fundamental morals that are still acknowledged even by those that had nothing to do with Judaeo/Christian values. Interesting isn't it?" Yes it is. Christians don't hold a monopoly on morals, and should not make that claim. Some make the claim we are a "Christian Nation" because we were founded by Christian people. I think it is more correct to say our country was founded on more universal morals, don't you?

"How a homosexual or a heterosexual individual leads their overall life is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is the dangerous sexual lifestyle that the homosexual leads in comparison to a heterosexual individual." Many people, including yourself it seems, have trouble differentiating between who a gay person is, and how a gay person conducts themselves sexually. Maybe we should condemn overall sexual practices instead of homosexual practices. Wouldn't it be better to say "sodomy is unhealthy". Gays don't hold the monopoly on sodomy, and not all gay men practice sodomy, although many in your camp suggest this. I don't believe lesbians practice sodomy at all.

Why is it when a couple consists of those of the same gender, their sexuality comes to the forefront, while opposite sex couples are not seen in this way?

We can debate till we are both blue in the face. No doubt we can both find statistics to back our claims. I've been reading such rhetoric for two years now and I've learned a lot in that time. I've also talked to people, from both sides of the issue. This all began, for me, with my brother, who is gay. Having started to read up on the issue of gay marriage, I came across claims of homsexuality being cured. I wanted to believe this, but I am a skeptic at heart, and needed the proof before bringing this to my brother. He's been in a monogomous relationship for 14 years, and I came to terms with his being gay even before he did. But I thought if there was a cure, why wouldn't he want it. It would be so much easier to be "normal".
I spoke to actual people who had turned their back on homosexuality, as well as the research I was able to come up with from the web. Incidentally, of the four people I spoke with, none of them claimed to be cured. All four, for religious reasons, were not happy with their "urges", and are now able to keep themselves "in control". Only one was married, the others were celebate.
Fast forward to about a month ago, when I told my brother what I had been researching, and the conclusions I had come to. He was horrified I had even considered there being a "cure". But, after not talking to me for two weeks, admitted he understood why I would have considered this. Not being gay myself, I really don't know what it is like, and he understood my concern for him. In the long run, I have a much better understanding of my brother, and his partner and friends, and believe I will be even closer to him.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I get kinda caught up in my thoughts sometimes.

Thank you for your time,

Rufus

9:27 AM, August 28, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Rufus,

You said:

"I find it kinda funny you use quotes from the bible to prove it is the word of God. In other words, the bible is true because the bible says it is true. The bible is the written word of God, because the bible says it is the written word of God. Circular logic at best,..."

The Bible does not say these things, God does. God wrote the Bible Rufus. So, are you therefor doubting God at this point and saying that He did not write the Word?

You said:

"It is not a stretch to think people of the same time period could have written down the same story, even though living distances apart."

So, God DID speak to all of these people his Word, which was therefor WRITTEN down in the Bible? No, this is not a stretch!!

You said:

"I think it is more correct to say our country was founded on more universal morals, don't you?"

Define these universal morals.

You said:

"I don't believe lesbians practice sodomy at all."

Oh??? Sodomy - Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal.

You asked:

"Why is it when a couple consists of those of the same gender, their sexuality comes to the forefront, while opposite sex couples are not seen in this way?"

Because HOMOsexuality (Homo - two of the SAME kind) is abnormal as compared to HETEROsexuality (Hetero - two of the OPPOSITE kind), which is deemed a normal human sexually related relationship.

You said:

"But I thought if there was a cure, why wouldn't he want it. It would be so much easier to be "normal"."

Their is no "cure" for homosexuality other than the grace of God, which is indicated by your story:

"All four, for religious reasons, were not happy with their "urges", and are now able to keep themselves "in control".

This, Rufus, is an act of God's grace.

"But...but...it could be that the four just did not like..." No, because of their "religious" beliefs the four were saved by Him unless they still practice homosexuality but are "in control" as to not engage in multiple relationships. Is that what you mean when you say "in control"?

Of all the things, don't worry about rambling. I love your compassion as you try and bring across your points.

Jesus saves, it is up to us to ask Him for the life raft Rufus.

Good job.

Scia

7:06 PM, August 28, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I said: The bible states that god created man, if he did, he did it through evolution.

Scia replied: Oh???? Enlighten me Mr. Weaver.

I’ll do my best but I’m no scientist. One of the best ways I’ve seen to explain evolution is the amount of space a brain will take. By looking at hominids from millions of years ago there is a significant difference in their skull’s amount of brain volume to the amount of volume we have in our skulls today. And if you follow through the timeline, the skulls of hominids have increased their brain capacity a little at a time. Pretty much the definition of evolution.

I said: The bible states that a huge flood killed every living being on the planet except the ones that were in Noah’s ark, No evidence exists that backs that up.

Scia said: Funny, because archiologists have found remnants of the arch in Europe. Look it up.

That’s funny, how did they distinguish this one boat that saved the species of every living land animal from all the other boats? Were there kangaroo on the Ark with Noah? How’d they get to Australia?

Off topic: Sorry I didn’t respond sooner, I just got back from a trip to Wisconsin.

Ken Weaver

11:40 AM, September 05, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

Scia, you said arch.

Are you referring to the Arc de Triomphe in Paris?

Or is it one of the other roman arches you are referring to ;-) !?!

Ken, there's evidence of floods all around. Look at the Grand Canyon - it was either millions of years, or one gigantic flood. Have you ever run a hose into loose soil and watched what happened? Sure, a little trickle will eventually create a canyon, but a big flood can do it in 1/1000th the time, can't it?

The evidence you are talking about with the human skulls is a reference to micro-evolution. No self-respecting scientist - even if they are a creationist - can deny micro-evolution.

But special evolution (from species to species) requires macro-evolution or something else to occur - perhaps punctuated evolution or hopeful monster provides better answers than a gradual evolutionary process?

8:56 AM, September 06, 2007  
Blogger Tyler Dawbin said...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to write punctuated evolution, I meant to write punctuated equilibrium - it's an alternative theory to evolution wherein big changes happen at one time (pre-cambrian explosion) followed by lots of little changes, and so on.

8:58 AM, September 06, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Ken, there's evidence of floods all around. Look at the Grand Canyon - it was either millions of years, or one gigantic flood. Have you ever run a hose into loose soil and watched what happened? Sure, a little trickle will eventually create a canyon, but a big flood can do it in 1/1000th the time, can't it?”

A big flood can create a canyon in 1/1000th the time in loose soil but not through solid rock. I’ve hiked the Grand Canyon and can assure you it is quite solid. As are a lot of rock formations in New Mexico and Utah. In those places as well as Arizona there is evidence of those places being underwater for many millions of years. All the continents were at one time one huge land mass, but after hundreds of millions of years they split apart. From what I last read of the movement of the continents they are still moving at about one inch every year. That’s about 63360 years for every mile. At that speed and the distance from Argentina to South America would take around 231 million years. Not to mention the amount of time it would take just for the breakup of the continents itself. Humans have a history that goes back only about 1.8 million years. In that time period our brain capacity was about 448 cc. Presently we have about 1700 cc. I have a seriously difficult time believing a human with 1/3rd less the brain power we have today would be capable of putting together a vessel capable of holding itself above water let alone capable of carrying two of every living creature on the planet as well as food for all of those animals.

“The evidence you are talking about with the human skulls is a reference to micro-evolution. No self-respecting scientist - even if they are a creationist - can deny micro-evolution.”

Would a creationist believe that micro evolution is what separated humans from apes from a single being millions of years ago?

“But special evolution (from species to species) requires macro-evolution or something else to occur - perhaps punctuated evolution or hopeful monster provides better answers than a gradual evolutionary process?”

Hopeful Monster by Richard Goldschmidt is still universally rejected by biologists. Punctuated equilibrium is still a denial of creationist claims of man being formed from dust and popping into existence.

Ken Weaver

4:21 PM, September 06, 2007  

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