Thursday, March 15, 2007

Indoctrinating our Youths

Suppose your son came home from school one day with a pamphlet — given to him by the school. Suppose it told your son:
  • Men who call themselves gay are sexually attracted to and fall in love with other men. Their sexual feelings toward men are normal and natural for them. These feelings emerge when they are boys and the feelings continue into adulthood. . . “I don’t remember exactly when I first knew I was gay, but I do remember that the thought of sex with men always excited me.”
  • “I had to reject a lot of negative heterosexual and religious programming that made me feel lousy about myself as a gay person. I began to like myself by meeting other gay people and going to a gay support group.”
  • “But it is crucial to be honest with yourself. Just as self-denial costs you, coming out pays off. Most kids who accept their sexuality say they feel calmer, happier and more confident.”

This was given out to students at Newton North High School in December, during an all-day “Transgender Bisexual Gay Lesbian Awareness Day” event (which the school called “ToBeGLAD Day”). By order of the principal, parents were not allowed to attend. The pamphlet also lists places kids can go to meet homosexuals.

And here’s another one that was given out that day. This slick booklet, "Youth Connections" is from [National Youth Advocacy Coalition, NYAC,] a national homosexual group targeting kids.
For a more detailed report go to Americans for Truth (March 14th report)and MassResistance (March 15th report) and download the phamphlets to read more about what our kids are being indoctrinated with under the school bell and with YOUR tax dollars.

30 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I’d be a little angry. With all the money the schools need for the programs they cut like auto shop, wood shop, music, phys ed., etc. etc. It would seem the school should not need to teach what should be taught at home: That there are people out there that feel differently and see the world differently than ourselves. Our children should already know that part of humanity, and that they need not fear people who are different, nor should they degrade them based on those differences. Our children should already know that it’s better to make friends with as many people as possible because you never know when you’ll need a friend. A friend that will listen to your troubles and not judge you based on unimportant aspects of humanity.


Ken Weaver

8:20 PM, March 15, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Next issue of Know Thy Facts, Not Thy Neighbors:
Claim: "God is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution and has nothing to do with this document"

What happened to that story? I was so looking forward to it.


Ken Weaver

8:33 PM, March 15, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Yipes!!! Before I left the blog I read this story.

The people should be up in arms about the principal denying them access thus holding the students hostage.

That principal should be immediately fired!

This kind of junk is what I meant about students being indoctrinated. I do agree with Ken that people, including students, should be respectful of one another. AND YES the money that was taken away from academic, shops, the arts is a huge loss to the MAJORITY.

8:51 PM, March 15, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

I totally agree with EVERYTHING you just said. Wow, that felt good saying that about you Mr. Weaver!! ;)

The next post of the claim: "God is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution and has nothing to do with this document" is up NEXT.

I am having some technical difficulties with downloading a 60 minute video that accompanies the post.

I will have it up by Sunday.

Sorry about that!!

Sincerely,
Scia

9:11 PM, March 16, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great Scia, I'm looking forward to it.

Ken Weaver

6:20 PM, March 17, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Mr. Weaver,

I was unable to download the video, which is REALLY renting a lot of space in my head!!! I am deeply sorry for this technical mishap. My goofy computer is acting up, but I am still going to try and show you guys the video some other way.

A question for you and others: Do you wish for me to do half of the post on the claim: "God is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution and has nothing to do with this document" or wait a few days so I can hopefully post the whole thing with the video? I am going to get some help from my IT friends at work tomorrow (Monday). I am not going to let this one go!!

Sincerely,
Scia

6:59 PM, March 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I say wait until it's completely ready. Too many outlets only put out half the story and then leave it at that. If someone were to just come by and see the half that you have, they might never come back thinking you are putting out a biased thread. Don't worry; I can be patient.

Ken Weaver

8:44 PM, March 18, 2007  
Blogger Ryan Charisma said...

Well,

they're my tax dollars too and I don't even have kids. so shall you take my money and not represent me? I DON'T THINK SO. The gay children need these pamphelts and classes. And what does a pamphlet cost in comparison to an autoshop? zilch. Why can't you see that not haveing these workshops for kids forces the gay children to feel alienated, which far too often ends in teen suicides. Do you really want the blood of gay youth on your hands?

Because it will be you who I'll blame.

1:52 PM, March 20, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“The gay children need these pamphelts and classes.”

Sorry Ryan but I disagree, those classes wouldn’t be needed if all children understood that being different was not a cause for abuse whether it be verbal or physical. If our society could see that homosexuals are equal to the majority in all aspects of life and were worthy of all the rights and responsibilities thereof we would not need classes like that at all.

As for the cost of those classes I must disagree as well. Instead of teaching children the academics and the arts, they have to teach what should already be known. It’s like trying to teach history to students that don’t speak the same language as the teacher. Instead of the teacher performing his/her primary function they are being forced to backtrack and teach what should already be known. Multiply that teacher’s hourly salary by every teacher in the school, and then multiply that amount by the number of schools in the nation. Even at one school the number would be huge. I believe in AZ the annual salary of the average teacher is $45,000 per year. Now we divide that amount by the number of working days which is around 210. That comes to $214.29 per day. Now divide that number by the number of hours worked in a day which we’ll just say is 10. So that number becomes $21.43 per teacher in a one hour class to teach what should already be known. My son’s high school had 136 teachers (not to mention the other staff). So we come to $21.43 times 136 for one school comes to a grand total of wasted dollars being $2914.48. So that’s nearly $3,000 dollars per school completely wasted.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe it is the school’s fault we are spending that money. That fault lies at the feet of every parent who fails to teach civility to their children.

Ken Weaver

8:28 PM, March 20, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ryan,

Once again your emotional bantering of your statements without any facts to back them up with has made you look like a fool.

You said:

"Why can't you see that not haveing these workshops for kids forces the gay children to feel alienated, which far too often ends in teen suicides. Do you really want the blood of gay youth on your hands?"

1. This fallacious assertion which is often cited in both gay and mainstream publications is derived from a 1989 report by a special federal task force on youth and suicide which showed that: 1) gay and lesbian youths accounted for one third of all teenage suicides; 2) that suicide was the leading cause of death among gay teenagers; 3) gay teens who commit suicide do so because of “internalized homophobia” and violence directed at them. (Peter LaBarbera, “The Gay Youth Suicide Myth,” The Jouranl of Human Sexuality, 65.)

2. Gay activist Paul Gibson wrote the report based on such shoddy research that Dr. Louis Sullivan, the former Secretary of Health and Human Services officially distanced himself and his department from it. Some of the questionable data and figures include the fact that the author claims that as many as 3000 gay youths kill themselves each year. But that figure exceeds by one thousand the total number of ANNUAL teen suicides. His “one-third” figure came from looking at gay surveys taken at drop in centers for troubled teens that revealed that gay teens had two to four times the suicidal tendencies as straight kids. Gibson then multiplied this higher figure by the disputed and debunked “Kinsey 10% homosexual population” figure to produce his “30% of all teen suicides are gay.” (Peter LaBarbera, “The Gay Youth Suicide Myth,” The Jouranl of Human Sexuality, 65.)

3. This report has been roundly criticized by many experts in the field of teen suicide. Professor David Shaffer, a Columbia University psychiatrist who specializes in teen suicides concluded that Gibson’s numbers seemed “more hocus-pocus than math.” (Peter LaBarbera, “The Gay Youth Suicide Myth,” The Jouranl of Human Sexuality, 65.)

4. In a credible peer reviewed study at Columbia University of 107 boy suicides only 3 were known to be gay and two of those died in a suicide pact. (Peter LaBarbera, “The Gay Youth Suicide Myth,” The Jouranl of Human Sexuality, 65.)

5. The Gallop Polling Organization conducted a study of 700 teenagers who knew a teen who had committed suicide, and not one mentioned sexuality as part of the problem. Those who had come close to killing themselves cited boy-girl problems or low self-esteem, but “internalized homophobia” was never mentioned. Also, Gibson didn’t use a heterosexual control group in his study. Not including a control group in any study tends to skew the statistics and conclusions of that trial. (Peter LaBarbera, “The Gay Youth Suicide Myth,” The Jouranl of Human Sexuality, 65.)

Thanks for stopping by.

Scia

11:05 AM, March 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Something you may be forgetting Scia is that if a teen is contemplating suicide; what’s the likelihood of them leaving a note behind for their parents that explains sexuality at all for the reason? Most (if not all) would probably deny that sexuality difference even on their “death bed”.

Ken Weaver

7:26 PM, March 22, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

What you say is true, but it does not back up the claim that Ryan is trying to proclaim.

Ryan is trying to suggest that as a result of being ridiculed and teased about a behavior that the end result "...far too often ends in teen suicide(s)." It is completly and utterly incorrect to use the term "far to OFTEN".

Suicide is a real possibility for a few but not to the extent that Ryan is remotely suggesting.

I wonder if suicide is a real problem for those who get teased because of their weight or because of severe acne on their face. Why are these issues not being addressed in phamplets? Why can't we have all of these issues under one umbrella and not just focus so intensly on one thing, such as sexual orientation?

My answer: Because the radical homosexual community is orchestrating a "revolution" of "coming out of the closet" and wants society to accept their immoral behaviors regardless of what else is going on such as teaching the 1,2,3's and A,B,C's.

10:44 AM, March 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“It is completly and utterly incorrect to use the term "far to OFTEN".”

So are you saying it doesn’t happen enough? Any time a kid is pondering suicide is a tragedy that happens far too often. If you’re disturbed by the lack of programs that address obesity and acne, feel free to start one, but don’t start berating a program that addresses homosexuality because there are other kids that don’t get their particular problems addressed in a similar fashion. When I was 11 I was going to a Scorpion’s concert in Phoenix. I invited one of my friends to go with me so he went to ask his mom. His mother said he couldn’t go. Well he started to get grumpy and complained that he should be allowed to go because my mom was letting me go. She looked at him and simply stated “I’m not his mother.” I seriously doubt she came to a conclusion that my mom was a bad person for letting me go, and she would have been wrong to think so based on that one incident. If you’re jealous that some people aren’t being addressed in programs similar to the ones provided by gay rights groups, step up to the plate and start your own program that will bring more of those problems to light.

“Because the radical homosexual community is orchestrating a "revolution" of "coming out of the closet" and wants society to accept their immoral behaviors regardless of what else is going on such as teaching the 1,2,3's and A,B,C's.”

Immoral immoral immoral, come on, get to the point. Most of society has already come to the conclusion that homosexuals are just different. Most not be able to toss away their presumptions about homosexuality as being disgusting, but for the most part they are slowly coming around.

I’ll ask that we stop using this word “immoral” until someone is able to explain why homosexuality deserves the term using common sense and not with antiquated ideals like tradition or biblical morality that no one has been able to follow.

Ken Weaver

7:04 PM, March 23, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Sorry... homosexual behavior IS immoral ~ (Marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good).

From the beginning of recorded history homosexual sexual behavior of sodomy and man on man oral sex has been considered immoral.

What you are suggesting is that there are no absolute truths.

If there is no absolute truth then EVERYTHING is a LIE, right? Thus, there is no truth.

If everything is a lie and there is no truth then this proves there has to be TRUTH because to say everything is a lie would indicate that statement is a TRUTH & is an absolute truth.

You don't want to use history, tradition or a biblical worldview because those views perforate your arguements and deflate them.

Deviant behavior is what it is... Deviant and a person that participates in that behavior is properly labeled a deviant (A person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior)

The majority has always ruled. The role the minority ALWAYS plays is to chip away at the majority until, THEY, the minority become the ruling party.

We do not want to be ruled by deviants. Ancient Rome was ruled by such a deviant named NERO. Read what he did.

Homosexual sexual behavior IS what we are speaking about here NOT ORIENTATION!

SCIA presented the cold hard facts. I already explained that if 33% of teen suicide is committed by homosexual youth then 67% of all teen suicide is committed by HETEROSEXUAL YOUTH.

Let's get real. Does anyone really believe that 67% of non-homosexual youth are killing themselves because they are heterosexual???

I have explained and explained in every way I can possibly find to provide the correct analogies, reasoning, logic and whatever else I could think of while trying NOT to be overtly proselytizing.

It is not my job to sell you and we can beat each other with lead bats and long blogs all day long. My job, as an ambassador of Jesus, the Christ, is to provide you with the message of truth. Whether you accept it is up to you and you alone. (You is used in a general overall 'you')

Homosexual sexual behavior is as wrong as Adultry (Extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations), or Fornication (Voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to each other) Sexual relations were designed to propogate the species through the God ordained marriage between one man & one woman. It is also an avenue of pleasure for a MAN & HIS WIFE within those boundries of marriage.

Anyone disagreeing with that can do so. It is your choice and your choice only to decide if you will be in harmony with God or rebel against Him.

I have nothing left to say and if I do it will just be a rehash of the many replies I have provided. You have received the message. So decide: God or No God. Truth or no Truth. Jesus or no Jesus. Everyoen will receive an invitation and everyone will be on on 1 of 2 guest lists. Whioch guest list do you want to be on?

I issue an invitation, to all reading. Jesus will not force you to draw near to Him. He loves you and wants you to come to Him. It is your choice though.

When you call on His name He will be there. Just remember this; Jesus is GOD in human form. He came to witness to the Truth (there's that word again). He freely gave His life. He was our substitute and HE took on the punishment of ALL humankind so WE could be with GOD for all eternity. A loving God disciplines His own just as a loving parent disciplines their own. There is no such thing as NO ACCOUNTABILITY. We all will be held accountable. There is anly one escape plan - all we have to do is believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.

I invite all reading this to draw near to Him and ask him for forgiveness, turn away from our sins and draw near to Him and learn from Him through His word.

John 3: 13-21

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."


OMD

3:14 PM, March 25, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Please excuse the typo's in the aboove

3:22 PM, March 25, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“From the beginning of recorded history homosexual sexual behavior of sodomy and man on man oral sex has been considered immoral.”

You are incorrect sir. There were many cultures that not just permitted, but advocated homosexual behavior. Greeks, Romans, American Indians, Bulgarians. Buggery was the term for sexual behavior coined by the Brits when they went to Bulgaria and saw so many homosexual encounters they started to use the term buggery.

“What you are suggesting is that there are no absolute truths.”

Incorrect again, what I am demanding is an explanation for the term immoral. Can a lie ever be truth? Yes it can. Can the truth ever be a lie? Once again yes. What makes a lie is the motive behind it.

“You don't want to use history, tradition or a biblical worldview because those views perforate your arguements and deflate them.”

No not really. I don’t want the bible to be an explanation for homosexuality as immoral because not everyone embraces the bible. Using tradition would be unethical because the one tradition that makes America great is the tradition of combining cultures and melding them to become our own. Diversity is America’s greatest tradition. If we use history we would have to compare histories of those that not only killed homosexuals, but also embraced them. Then it would only become a match of numbers.

“Deviant behavior is what it is... Deviant and a person that participates in that behavior is properly labeled a deviant (A person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior)”

Well then our country has been full of deviants, from the first pilgrim to today. Remember that the 1st pilgrims were religious deviants, as their religious behavior was unacceptable in the culture they came from. What I want to know is why homosexuality is immoral. I can look at many of the commandments in the bible and see the reasoning behind them; the reasoning behind homosexuality evades me. So I was hoping someone here could explain it to me. It seems I overestimated you.

“The majority has always ruled. The role the minority ALWAYS plays is to chip away at the majority until, THEY, the minority become the ruling party.”

Are you saying that you’re afraid homosexuals will rule America if we don’t keep them down? Are they going to propagate through their “indoctrination” policies and soon there won’t be enough heterosexuals in our society? Come on.

“We do not want to be ruled by deviants. Ancient Rome was ruled by such a deviant named NERO. Read what he did.”

Charlemagne was the 1st Christian king; read what he did.

“Let's get real. Does anyone really believe that 67% of non-homosexual youth are killing themselves because they are heterosexual???”

Did anyone say that they were?

“Homosexual sexual behavior is as wrong as Adultry”

No it isn’t. If I commit adultery there is a potential victim.

“I have nothing left to say and if I do it will just be a rehash of the many replies I have provided. You have received the message. So decide: God or No God. Truth or no Truth. Jesus or no Jesus. Everyoen will receive an invitation and everyone will be on on 1 of 2 guest lists. Whioch guest list do you want to be on?”

If all you wanted to do was provide a message, you should have said so before. I would not have felt the need to continue a discussion with you. I’m disappointed that you have nothing left to say; I was hoping you might give me some truth I could comprehend. But if you wish to stop replying to me remember, it wasn’t I that walked away.

“Jesus is GOD in human form.”

I thought god was perfect. Jesus certainly wasn’t.

“A loving God disciplines His own just as a loving parent disciplines their own.”

I’m not sure I would call an eternity in hell discipline. Discipline is punishment designed to get someone on the right track. If we followed the logic that god uses an eternity in hell as discipline then he should be checked out by CPS just as I should be if I punish my child by giving him a good spanking lasting anywhere near eternity.

Nice passage from the bible, maybe I should post some of my favorite passages from it. No probably not, some people would probably wish to hang me for posting the passages they like to forget.

Ken Weaver

6:37 PM, March 25, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

My perception of you are looking for is for someone to convince you that homosexuality is wrong.

There will never be an explanation that will satisfy you, Ken, is there?

You have indicated that you hold Agnostic beliefs [A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God but does not deny that God might exist].

If you want to leave God out of it...

The answer is ~ Society has decided that homosexual sexual behavior is immoral ~

Our worldviews clash. You want to use only human reasoning and understanding because of your agnostic views. Yours is a secular humanist worldview and mine is a Christian worldview. Therein poses the problem.

We can continue to discuss if you choose to. Do you see any chance of you coming over from the dark side? [grin ;~)]

I do regret that some of my words appeared to be harsher than my intention. I read them a couple of days later and saw that they didn't really convey what I wanted to convey in the tone I desired.

What I would really request of you is to read "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. I think we had discussed this earlier on. I believe you may find more sophistcated commentary that will help you find the understanding I seem to be unable to convey to you.

Eternity in Hell is NOT discipline.

It is a Judgement.

It is a conviction that
carries a life sentence, which is eternity separated from God.

If mankind has rules do you really think God does not?

Is there anyone out there that believes we can live in anarchy, no rules, no boundries, no accoutability to God and then stand before Him and expect Him to say...

"Glad to see you were having fun worshipping imposter gods, making idols to worship, cursing God, disrespecting your mother and father, killing each other, committing adultry, taking from others that which is not yours, lieing to and about each other, wanting that which is not yours?"

There IS accountibility and we are accountable to a Holy and righteous God.

God is perfect. Jesus IS God in human form. I'm curious... why do you say Jesus was not perfect?

What evidence is there about that?

If He was not perfect that would mean He was a sinner, like the rest of us, and if He was a sinner, that would render the entire basis of Christianty null and void.

If Jesus is not who He says He is then we who are saved Christians are to be the most pitied people of all.

As far as homosexuals go, I am not afraid they will rule. I was saying that ALL those given minority status always seek to chip away at the majority with the ultimate goal of becoming the ruling faction. Not just homosexuals. If someone chooses to engage in homosexual sexual behavior that is their choice. That being the case they should keep it to themselves instead of creating such theater about their behavior.

Let's take a look at this. At the North Shore Music Theater for each show they put on (6 musical plays) there is one night set aside for homosexuals, especially. Hmmm... why does a behavior deserve a special night? The theater responded by saying that they get a large sponsorship from a large homosexual based business group. They also said there were comfort issues but discounted comfort issues for non-homomsexuals. They acknowledged that homosexuals are welcomed at ALL performances. So I guess, follow the money

When I was in Texas I noticed a sign in the hotel promoting an ethnic employee group for a large well known company (exclusive to that particular group only). When that company was asked if there could be an employee group that catered to Caucasians exclusively the answer was no But all other groups could. Hmmm... Why does it seem that certain groups expect and are granted special provisions?

I should clarify that it is the radical element of the individual minority groups that are the perpetrators and intend on being divisive.

So when people take a stand against what is considered immoral or exclusive treatment, Hate Crime Bills are sponsored. This is so bogus!!

So now we want thought police, right?

George Orwell rises.

Least we need to be reminded many have fought and given their all so EVERYONE has the freedom of speech.

8:47 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Least we need to be reminded many have fought and given their all so EVERYONE has the freedom of speech.

Should have read Lest we need to be reminded,...

8:49 AM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“My perception of you are looking for is for someone to convince you that homosexuality is wrong.”

Correct.

“There will never be an explanation that will satisfy you, Ken, is there?”

I’m sure there is as long as the explanation does not entail myth. Just show me who the victim is. How can there be a crime if there is no victim?

“The answer is ~ Society has decided that homosexual sexual behavior is immoral ~"

That’s not much of an explanation. With that kind of thought one could propose anything; even the burning at the stake of pagans.

"Our worldviews clash. You want to use only human reasoning and understanding because of your agnostic views. Yours is a secular humanist worldview and mine is a Christian worldview. Therein poses the problem.”

The only problem is that by your admission of biblical reasoning as being against marriage equality you are requiring others to follow at least a part of that system of beliefs; I on the other hand only require that you not hurt others in your quest for happiness.

“Do you see any chance of you coming over from the dark side? [grin ;~)]”

Absolutely, I hate being an Agnostic. Maybe it’s just that thought of “the grass is always greener” but I look at Christians being able to be blind to injustices dealt by the Judeo-Christian god. I find myself unable to look past those injustices.

“What I would really request of you is to read "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel.”

The book has been ordered and I am expecting it any day now. I’ll let you know when I receive it and when I’ve read it.

“Eternity in Hell is NOT discipline.

It is a Judgement.”

So what is the discipline god can give out?

“There IS accountibility and we are accountable to a Holy and righteous God.”

Then god can judge me by my actions. If however he wishes to judge my inability to accept him I can only respond to him by explaining I found few redeeming qualities greater than my own in my view of Christians or their biblical view of him.

“God is perfect. Jesus IS God in human form. I'm curious... why do you say Jesus was not perfect?”

Didn’t Jesus become enraged at the sight of merchants inside the temple and start thrashing the merchants? Did he ever explain to them prior to that time at how wrong it seemed? Where was his “love thine enemy” belief at that point?

“If Jesus is not who He says He is then we who are saved Christians are to be the most pitied people of all.”

I disagree; many people have been led astray by a belief in falsehoods.

“If someone chooses to engage in homosexual sexual behavior that is their choice.”

Homosexuals will tell you they had no choice in what gender they found attractive any more than you did.

“Hmmm... why does a behavior deserve a special night?”

It doesn’t. Not any more than a religion does.

“Why does it seem that certain groups expect and are granted special provisions?”

I don’t know.

Lest we need to be reminded many have fought and given their all so EVERYONE has the freedom of religion.

Ken Weaver

9:48 PM, March 29, 2007  
Anonymous omd said...

Hey, that's great you ordered the book.

Unless you are one of those readers that are able to absorb and digest material quickly, my suggestion is to read little pieces of it at a time. There is so much information I found myself having to muse quite a bit before being able to continue.

Sometimes I get really confused by your comments, Ken.

Everyone DOES have Freedom of religion in the United States. There are satanist sects, muslim sects, hindus, buddhists, Jewish, Christian, Catholic, Anglican, wiccans, ba'hi, jehovah witnesses etc... I can't even list them all and they are all practised unimpeded.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean that one cannot bring it to the public arena.

The hate crime legislation presently being considered could very well stifle free speech because it would be left up to the thought police to be interpreters of thought. AND groups, such as homosexuals, would be given preferential treatment to the detriment of the rest of society.

Now, people carrying signs that say "God hates Fags" or "Queers are Going to Hell" are totally wrong just as people carrying signs and shouting Bigot are wrong. God does not hate homosexuals nor are homosexuals going to Hell because of homosexuality or behavior. The only reason a person could go to Hell is they didn't reach God's standard. He doesn't grade on a curve, either. God's standard is Jesus.

“There will never be an explanation that will satisfy you, Ken, is there?”

I’m sure there is as long as the explanation does not entail myth. Just show me who the victim is. How can there be a crime if there is no victim?

Whoever said homosexuality was a crime?


The real victim here is society.

I could care less if 2 guys or 2 gals want to queer it up. Just don't go out and try to tell the rest of society that their particular behavior deserves civil rights status.

Me -

“The answer is ~ Society has decided that homosexual sexual behavior is immoral ~"

You -

That’s not much of an explanation. With that kind of thought one could propose anything; even the burning at the stake of pagans.

Me -

Well, yes, in a society where there are no rules, no absolutes and no morality i.e. anarchy... you are correct "one COULD propose anything".

This is why we need laws even common law. Those laws are set by society. There will always be people that rebel against those laws, no matter what they are. Now, THAT is an absolute UNLESS we have anarchy i.e. no law.

You had asked not to use God or tradition or anything you consider myth. So I used the premise, looking through my limited knowledge of history, and realized that throughout the ages groups of people seemed to always setup rules to govern themselves. They determined what is acceptable & unacceptable.

So, using that premise the only answer that can exist is "Society sets the rules and society determines what is moral or immoral". If those rules are violated then society is hurt thus making it the victim. Remember, we are not using God, or tradition, or myth here. Just human reasoning.

“Eternity in Hell is NOT discipline.

It is a Judgement.”


You -

So what is the discipline god can give out?

Me -

God disciplines us in many ways, just as a parent disciplines their child in many ways. We can play a symantics game here between the word discipline and judgement. I was using judgement meaning "The capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions" to apply to when we stand before God to account for our lives.

To address Jesus and the temple merchants ~ It needs to be understood that the Jewish temple is a holy place. It is the place where their God lives. The merchants were defiling the house of God. What needs to be said here is that God IS a God of love but He does become angered and He is a vengeful God "Vengence is mine saith the Lord". Jesus is part of the triune nature of God i.e. God in the flesh. Let's use this example. If I walked into my church and saw merchant tables setup, flea market, and there were people selling all manner of goods and haggling I would be very upset. My church is a place of worship and learning and gathering for fellowship. It is not a marketplace. I WOULD be angered and I would chase them out. That is ALL Jesus did.

The misconception people have is that God is just some benevolent grandfather type sitting back and watching His creation having any kind of fun they choose even if it goes against His holy nature. NOPE!! Why would we want to displease Him?

I remember growing up and wanting to please my parents, my father especially, He gave me instruction about how to live. I didn't want to disappoint him and I didn't want him to be angry with me. It was devastating when I screwed up and saw the pain I caused. Pain I didn't understand until I had kids and I experienced that same pain. It was the pain of love and the pain of seeing them have to experience the consequences of rejecting his teaching, thinking it was old fashioned and meant to keep me from having fun. [That was satan's lie to Eve]

I would see people trying to lead my kids astray, which would've hurt them and I would become angered or even jealous (in a way) that my kids could be lead astray from what we had taught them.

Ken, God is the same way. We are His children. We are made in his image. Please don't make the mistake of underestimating Him or thinking His rules are confining. They are there for a reason, even if we don't understand why or disagree.

You -

Homosexuals will tell you they had no choice in what gender they found attractive any more than you did.

Of course they will say that. Everyone's way is right in their own eyes. Again, I will reiterate. You seem to be suggesting there is a "homosexual gene". Science has not found any conclusive evidence of that, to date.
Until they do the homosexual gene is mere speculation thus not a valid argument.

Human reasoning - "I did this because of that". When we are held accountable we always need a scape goat to blame our actions on i.e "the devil made me do it". He was going to do this to me so I did that to him before he could do it to me. That guy cut me off so I'm going to ride his bumper. He made me do it by cutting me off. Ever hear of the insanity defense? There's always seems to be an excuse or a reason to explain away our capability to reason and choose, right? It's never our fault, is it?. We're the victims right with the inability to chose or reason.

Is that what you're going to tell God? "Well God (the Father), I didn't believe on Jesus because he tipped over some tables and got angry so that showed me he wasn't perfect. I'm a good person God, I didn't hurt anyone. Jesus? Oh, well they said he and Mary Magdaline were having an affair. Well, everyone knows his disciples removed his body besides how could it be that Mary and Joseph didn't have sex after all how could she have gotten pregnant?

We're good people, right? Well, by whose standards???
Mankind's or God's?

6:42 PM, March 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“So, using that premise the only answer that can exist is "Society sets the rules and society determines what is moral or immoral". If those rules are violated then society is hurt thus making it the victim. Remember, we are not using God, or tradition, or myth here. Just human reasoning.”

Wow that’s great!! It makes sense. So once homosexuality has gained more acceptance it would be okay to have homosexual marriages; just not right now.

“I WOULD be angered and I would chase them out. That is ALL Jesus did.”

Having a god that easily angered would scare even most adults let alone children. Do we worship that god for fear of what he can do to us, or do we worship because we truly love him?

“The misconception people have is that God is just some benevolent grandfather type sitting back and watching His creation having any kind of fun they choose even if it goes against His holy nature. NOPE!! Why would we want to displease Him?”

I want to displease him so he’ll actually do something. Where are his actions active? Where can we see his wonders?

“Ken, God is the same way. We are His children. We are made in his image. Please don't make the mistake of underestimating Him or thinking His rules are confining. They are there for a reason, even if we don't understand why or disagree.”

So do we blindly follow him because of his power? If god wants me to love him he must stand for a morality I can comprehend. And the writings of him that I’ve read show his morality to be contemptible.

“Until they do the homosexual gene is mere speculation thus not a valid argument.”

The same could be said for god.

“Is that what you're going to tell God?”

You bet I am. Too many people proclaim god’s miracles. That one word disgusts me.

“We're good people, right? Well, by whose standards???
Mankind's or God's?”

I won’t worry about god’s standards; I’ll worry about the standards I set for myself.

Ken Weaver

6:27 PM, March 31, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

You have some pretty awesome questions that are renting some space in your head.

You said:

"I want to displease him so he’ll actually do something. Where are his actions active? Where can we see his wonders?"

My answer:

Read "The Case for Faith" and EXPERIENCE Him.

Awesome questions, awesome!!!

7:58 PM, April 09, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Still reading the book.

Ken Weaver

7:45 PM, April 10, 2007  
Blogger Sheri said...

Yet another example of why we have homeschooled the past four years.

7:17 PM, April 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it's so wonderful that the schools are making an effort to help youth feel comfortable with their sexual orientation, whatever it may be. I think acts like this will decrease violence from ignorant, hateful people.

3:29 PM, June 20, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Anonymous,

You said:

"I think acts like this will decrease violence from ignorant, hateful people."

Why are these 'people' ignorant and hateful?

10:32 PM, June 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Why are these 'people' ignorant and hateful?”

Because they are enacting violence on others for their views of sex (hate), while not knowing why a person would have that view (ignorance).

Ken Weaver, although I'm not the anonymous you were referring to.

6:05 AM, July 01, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

What violence is being enacted??????????????????????

8:36 PM, July 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“What violence is being enacted??????????????????????”

Do you want me to post some stories of violence against homosexuals or do you want the actual violence that the anonymous writer wrote about. If you want the latter you will have to ask him.

Ken Weaver

9:55 PM, July 07, 2007  
Blogger SCIA said...

Ken,

The only thing that is difficult with me keeping the "Anonymous" tag on my blog's comment section is the fact that many people use it.

The only reason I keep this tag is that people can chime in and not get caught at work, ect.

All well...such is life.

8:06 PM, July 09, 2007  

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